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Quadriplegic & Paraplegic Spinal Cord Injuries > Disabled Living & Spinal Cord Injuries > Spinal Cord Injury Health Issues > Life Following SCI - Lifestyle Issues & Self Image
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graphic
Player's assisted suicide probed

"Police are probing the death of a paralysed rugby player who travelled to a Swiss assisted suicide clinic.
Daniel James, 23, of Worcester, died on 12 September in a clinic where he had travelled with the intention of killing himself, an inquest heard.
West Mercia Police said a man and a woman had been questioned over his death.
Assisted suicides are illegal in the UK but are tolerated by the authorities in Switzerland.
Mr James played rugby for England Under 16s and England students and was tipped for a future in the professional game.
'Investigation ongoing'
But during a training session at Nuneaton Rugby Club he suffered a collapsed spine in a scrum in March 2007.
The former pupil at Worcester Royal Grammar School was paralysed from the chest down.
An inquest into his death was opened and adjourned on 19 September.
A trust set up in his name after his accident has raised nearly £25,000 for spinal research.
Det Insp Adrian Todd, of West Mercia Police, said: "A police investigation is ongoing and officers have spoken with a man and a woman in connection with the case.
"A report will later be submitted to the Crown Prosecution Service and an inquest into the death will take place in due course."
Government inquiry
BBC correspondent Imogen Foulkes, in Berne, said assisted suicide has raised issues of concern in Switzerland.
She said it was permitted as long as the person carries out the act themselves and the helper has no "direct interest".
Dignitas, the clinic where all known British assisted suicides have taken place, offers help to people to end their lives if they are suffering a terminal illness, a chronic condition (including paralysis) or a mental illness.
The only stipulation is that a patient has expressed a wish to die and this has been certified by a doctor.
But the actions of Dignitas have provoked controversy and disquiet in Switzerland.
The issue of assisted suicide is now the subject of a government inquiry, the results of which are expected to be released early next year.
The inquiry will look at the counsel and care provided by assisted suicide groups and the practice of offering assisted suicide to non-Swiss citizens."


I heard this on the news this afternoon. I think it's so sad, 23 years old. I have to say I don't approve of assisted suicide but the fact he was only injured a year ago makes it worse in my eyes. I think it's too soon following his injury for him to have had enough chance to see what the future held for him. The first year post injury is very traumatic and, given the level of his injury, I don't think a year is enough to make a balanced decision of this magnitude. As most of us know, it can take much longer than a year to come to terms let alone rebuild a life. Given time, I'd hope he would have enjoyed a good life. I know we're all different (there are times I feel I'll be glad when my life's over just to be rid of the pain) and it's difficult to know the full circumstances from a news report, but I hope the DPP will look seriously at this case.
Izziwhizzi
I've just been reading the news too, and am feeling extremely numb and hurt at the moment.

From what I can find from the internet he was a C6/7 break and injured March 2007, and went to Stoke. He travelled over to Switzerland with his parents for the assisted suicide.

There surely was soooo much more that could have been done before this drastic and final step was taken of a young lad and son. I am very saddened by this news and do hope there is a thorough investigation or else the green light will come on and young injuries may feel it is an accepted norm that once paralysed you commit suicide within the first few months.
Apparelyzed
Here'a another article from The Times:

Rugby star Dan James in 'assisted suicide' after training injury

The “assisted suicide” of young rugby player who was left paralysed last year when a scrum collapsed is being investigated by police.

Dan James, who once played for England Under-16s, died last month after travelling to a Swiss euthanasia clinic with his parents, Mark and Julie.

The 23-year-old looked destined for a professional playing career before he was left paralysed from the the chest down after his spine was dislocated while training with Nuneaton Rugby Club in March 2007.

An inquest into his death was opened last month. The circumstances of the death were recorded as: “Deceased travelled to Switzerland with a view to ending his own life. He was admitted to a clinic where he died.”

He is one of the youngest Britons to have travelled to Switzerland for an assisted suicide.

The former pupil at Worcester Royal Grammar School was the son of Stuart James, who is listed as the Director of Rugby at Worcester Wanderers - an amateur club linked to Guinness Premiership club Worcester Warriors.

Mr James and his wife have being interviewed by police as part of an investigation into his death.

Det Insp Adrian Todd, of West Mercia Police, said: “A police investigation is ongoing and officers have spoken with a man and a woman in connection with the case. A report will later be submitted to the Crown Prosecution Service and an inquest into the death will take place in due course.”

Mr and Mrs James, from Sinton Green, near Worcester, have refused to comment on the investigation.

In April, Mrs James told the Worcester News about the moment she heard about the injury as part of an appeal to raise £100,000 for spinal injury research.

“It was so sudden,” she said. "We had no build-up to it, it just happened. We got a phone call saying Dan had a bit of a knock at rugby. That was it.

"I always stop and think that if every family affected by spinal injury in the past 20 years had raised money for research, we might be five years more advanced and it may have made a difference to Dan.”

Her son was a former pupil of Worcester’s Royal Grammar School and, when he sustained his injury, he was studying construction engineering management at Loughborough University. He had played for Worcester RFC mini-junior and rose through the ranks to play for Worcester Wanderers Colts. He also represented England Under-16s, England Universities and England Students.

After his death was announced, a spokesman for Worcester Warriors said: “Danny and his family are a large part of the family ethos at Worcester Warriors and Worcester Rugby Football Club and our thoughts are with them at this difficult time.

“Danny’s injuries were caused on a rugby field and it is something that every player that runs out on to the pitch fears most. However, as a result of Danny James, and also Matt Hampson at Leicester Tigers, the game of rugby has been made more aware of the dangers of spinal injuries.”

More than 100 Britons have travelled to Switzerland to make use of laws that allow assisted suicide, a practice prohibited in Britain. The figure, released by Dignitas, the centre for assisted dying in Zurich, were disclosed as a High Court test challenge begins today to the laws that ban aiding and abetting suicide.

Dignitas was founded in 1998 by Ludwig Minelli, a Swiss lawyer who runs it as a non-profit organisation. It takes advantage of Switzerland's liberal laws on assisted suicide, which suggest that a person can be prosecuted only if they are acting out of self-interest.

According to Dignitas, the number of Britons among its assisted suicides reached 100 last month. There is, however, no independent verification of its figures.

In the latest legal battle to be brought through the courts on the assisted suicide issue, multiple sclerosis sufferer Debbie Purdy was told she must wait to learn whether she has won her legal battle to clarify the law after two judges at the High Court reserved their judgment on her case.

Her lawyers are seeking a High Court declaration that the Director of Public Prosecutions, Sir Ken Macdonald, is obliged under human rights laws to spell out in clearer terms the circumstances and the factors which might lead to the prosecution of members of her family if she undertook an assisted suicide.

It is the first big challenge to the law on assisted suicide since that brought by Dianne Pretty, who died aged 43 in May 2002 from motor neuron disease. Her effort to change the law so that her husband could help her to end her life was rejected by the House of Lords in November 2001.

Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/h...m=1224247566087
ems
I just watched it, Its so sad sad.gif
Theresar360
QUOTE (ems @ Oct 17 2008, 06:02 AM) *
I just watched it, Its so sad sad.gif

I am in the USA in Washington state. This is the election year and our state is trying to pass an inititive for assisted suicide. I think it is so sad that one so young would choose to go this route. I agree that he was to early into his injury to make such a harsh choice. My granddaughter is only 2 and a quad and I could never imagine making that choice for her or letting her do something like that. There is always hope in the future and it is terrible sad that some people can't see that....Theresa
Unbreakable
QUOTE
From what I can find from the internet he was a C6/7 break and injured March 2007, and went to Stoke. He travelled over to Switzerland with his parents for the assisted suicide.


I think it's sickening that his own parents were accomplices to his suicide. That is twisted and wrong on so many levels. I am saying, they brought him into this world. They should have been helping him to cope with his injury and new way of life, not ending it.
JT80
i know this family indirectly. it is tragic.
quite why you think you have the omnipotence to be judge and jury on this situation and make any kind of accusations towards the parents or the situation, i don't know. in fact, actually, i do know - you are continuing your plight to prove yourself as the undisputed bell end champion.
i of course take back the above, should you inform us that you know the situation specifics and for sure that they were accomplices and that they weren't making an effort to help him cope. knowing you and your unrivalled knowledge you probably do know best though.
as far as i'm aware, you become an adult at eighteen and you are at liberty to live like any other person in the free world, but sherlock holmes here has identified the problem from across the sea and its the parents fault.
maybe, just maybe, there might be any number of reasons for this tragedy. a family has lost a son and brother.

lets just say your existence isn't exactly an enticement to avoid similar tragedies.


QUOTE (Unbreakable @ Oct 17 2008, 02:28 PM) *
QUOTE
From what I can find from the internet he was a C6/7 break and injured March 2007, and went to Stoke. He travelled over to Switzerland with his parents for the assisted suicide.


I think it's sickening that his own parents were accomplices to his suicide. That is twisted and wrong on so many levels. I am saying, they brought him into this world. They should have been helping him to cope with his injury and new way of life, not ending it.
Unbreakable
QUOTE
i know this family indirectly. it is tragic.
quite why you think you have the omnipotence to be judge and jury on this situation and make any kind of accusations towards the parents or the situation, i don't know. in fact, actually, i do know - you are continuing your plight to prove yourself as the undisputed bell end champion.
i of course take back the above, should you inform us that you know the situation specifics and for sure that they were accomplices and that they weren't making an effort to help him cope. knowing you and your unrivalled knowledge you probably do know best though.
as far as i'm aware, you become an adult at eighteen and you are at liberty to live like any other person in the free world, but sherlock holmes here has identified the problem from across the sea and its the parents fault.
maybe, just maybe, there might be any number of reasons for this tragedy. a family has lost a son and brother.

lets just say your existence isn't exactly an enticement to avoid similar tragedies.


Well, JT80, if you think that is such a great thing, perhaps you should book yourself a flight to Switzerland as well then? I was merely expounding on Izziwhizzi's comment. I was trying to point out that, yes, the rugby player in question WAS an adult, but I strongly disagreed with his parents facillitating his demise, even going so far as to say they encouraged it. They might as well have cut out the middleman and handed him a loaded pistol so he could have shot himeself. Wait, guns are outlawed in the UK. Alright, then they may as well have given him a dose of rat poison. I mean, they ENDORSED the suicide of their own child. Speaking as a parent here, if my son became a quad or para tomorrow, there is no way in hell I would take him to a suicide clinic. That would be the most barbaric, selfish, twisted thing I have ever heard of.
Trinity
There is a huge difference between endorsing his suicide and respecting his descision, as a fully grown adult and wishing to be there when his life ended it. Not many people want to die alone, the same way that no parent would wish their child to die alone.
Unbreakable
QUOTE
There is a huge difference between endorsing his suicide and respecting his descision, as a fully grown adult and wishing to be there when his life ended it. Not many people want to die alone, the same way that no parent would wish their child to die alone.


Don't you think maybe they could have tried to talk him out of it, though? Let him know that there are a great many paralyzed persons leading happy, productive lives? Maybe not as famous rugby players, but alive, not dead. Let me change that. He could've gotten into quad rugby. Been a murderball all-star. Never know now. He threw it all away at only 23 years old. How sad.
Apparelyzed
Further details can be found here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/herefor...rcs/7676812.stm

It appears he already made several attempts at suicide.

Whilst it isn't something I would currently want to do, I would like to think my parents would respect my wishes as an adult, if I wanted to end my own life, in a controlled manner, but I think I'd give it at least 3 years.

Not everyone can handle being paralysed.

Please keep this thread civil Unbreakable, I really don't want to have to start deleting more of your replies, as it will only happen so many times.

Simon.
Trinity
Do you honestly not think they didn't try that?
graphic
I agree with JT80 that it's a tragic case but I also agree with Unbreakable. There is no way on earth I could take one of my children to a suicide clinic because of a spinal injury, no matter how depressed they were. His parents are quoted on Sky News as saying Dan was "an intelligent young man of sound mind" who was "not prepared to live what he felt was a second-class existence". They said he had also tried to commit suicide a number of times. I'm sorry, whilst I sympathise with his parents over their loss, I'm upset because he was not terminally ill and had a future ahead of him. It might not have been the future he wanted but he wasn't given enough time to properly come to terms with his situation and explore that future. I don't claim to know the full facts, I can only go on what's been reported, and whilst I don't wish to see his parents imprisoned I hope the DPP will take a serious look at the case because I think the reporting of the matter gives the wrong signals about the worth of a disabled person's life in general. I also hope the government will make plain what their policy is on assisted suicide. I agree with those who say he was an adult and could decide for himself but I still feel that one year post injury was too soon to support such a final decision.
JT80
QUOTE (Unbreakable @ Oct 17 2008, 03:51 PM) *
QUOTE
i know this family indirectly. it is tragic.
quite why you think you have the omnipotence to be judge and jury on this situation and make any kind of accusations towards the parents or the situation, i don't know. in fact, actually, i do know - you are continuing your plight to prove yourself as the undisputed bell end champion.
i of course take back the above, should you inform us that you know the situation specifics and for sure that they were accomplices and that they weren't making an effort to help him cope. knowing you and your unrivalled knowledge you probably do know best though.
as far as i'm aware, you become an adult at eighteen and you are at liberty to live like any other person in the free world, but sherlock holmes here has identified the problem from across the sea and its the parents fault.
maybe, just maybe, there might be any number of reasons for this tragedy. a family has lost a son and brother.

lets just say your existence isn't exactly an enticement to avoid similar tragedies.


Well, JT80, if you think that is such a great thing, perhaps you should book yourself a flight to Switzerland as well then? I was merely expounding on Izziwhizzi's comment. I was trying to point out that, yes, the rugby player in question WAS an adult, but I strongly disagreed with his parents facillitating his demise, even going so far as to say they encouraged it. They might as well have cut out the middleman and handed him a loaded pistol so he could have shot himeself. Wait, guns are outlawed in the UK. Alright, then they may as well have given him a dose of rat poison. I mean, they ENDORSED the suicide of their own child. Speaking as a parent here, if my son became a quad or para tomorrow, there is no way in hell I would take him to a suicide clinic. That would be the most barbaric, selfish, twisted thing I have ever heard of.


i keep re-reading my post trying to find the point at which i think its a great thing? i'll keep looking though.
remind us how you know that his parents facilitated and encouraged his suicide? maybe they contacted you for more of your pearls of wisdom...
i know suicide is a different ball park altogether, but i imagine that in the future UB jnr will not be doing anything of his/her own accord....no smoking, no drugs, no excessive drinking, no unprotected sex, no crossing busy roads. and why? because daddy UB won't allow it. haha, grow up peter pan.
everyone that posted before his lordship had expressed sadness at the whole situation - which i'm not sure any of us know a whole lot about - but apparently it lands squarely with the parents.


there is also an expression about stones and glasshouses. i seem to remember you tearing into someone about their incorrect spelling on a previous post. maybe time to take a look in the mirror, or has that been sold in favour of a self portrait??
Unbreakable
QUOTE
I'm sorry, whilst I sympathise with his parents over their loss, I'm angry because he was not terminally ill and had a future ahead of him. It might not have been the future he wanted but he wasn't given enough time to properly come to terms with his situation and explore that future. I don't claim to know the facts, I can only go on what's been reported, and whilst I don't wish to see his parents imprisoned I hope the DPP will take a serious look at the case because I think the reporting of the matter gives the wrong signals about the worth of a disabled person's life in general.


This, in essence was what I was trying to convey. Paralysis is not a terminal illness, just a lifestyle change. Yes, it can be depressing and a major shock at first, but that's no reason to go and kill yourself. Assisted suicide starts us down a slippery slope of how much our lives our worth, like graphic was saying. It might be assisted suicide today, but for those countries with national heathcare, assissted suicide might turn into government-sanctioned death programs for people it deems are not "useful" to society anymore. Trust me, you don't want to open up the assisted suicide Pandora's Box.
ems
Tis on the BBC News now..
rmorgan
"book you a flight to Switzerland?" ??? How rude is that...I don't even like coming to this site anymore because of all your rude comments.

You need to learn on how to make a point without being an ass. Seems you have a lot of pent up aggression and anger for someone who is a "born again Christian."
Dave Bishopstone
A very sad situation, who knows how this man would have progressed and what he may have achieved - now these are unanswerable questions. As the parent of an SCI son, there is no way that we could have assisted our son to have ended his life had he have requested us to do so - but he didn't, he loved us too much to have asked such a thing. He now has a happy and fulfilled life with much to look forward too, because he, with our and many others support and love still believed that life is worth living.

Yet, I find it impossible to make a judgement, whilst disagreeing with suicide, I have to accept the individuals right to waste his life, but not his right to involve others in that process. mellow.gif
jimwa
I have conflicting emotions on this subject, many expressed in previous posts. I believe a person should be allowed to decide, but so soon after injury one really doesn't understand the life they may have. A very difficult area to regulate by a law. Another example of assisted suicide in the U.S. is "Journey's end for a paralyzed soldier" http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/331161. It happens even when there is not a specific law allowing it. I don't feel able to judge others actions, there is always more to the story, but it does make one think.

Jim
CR_L1
QUOTE (trinity @ Oct 17 2008, 05:03 PM) *
There is a huge difference between endorsing his suicide and respecting his descision, as a fully grown adult and wishing to be there when his life ended it. Not many people want to die alone, the same way that no parent would wish their child to die alone.

I agree, well said Trin...

Granted looking from an out siders point of view it would seem a knee-jerk reaction at such an early stage of injury but I never knew the guy himself or the family so can’t comment on the rights or wrongs of the decision he made & at the end of the day HE would have made that decision.

This is one of those “Prolife” arguments which will never end, we all have the choice of how we live our lives so why is it people feel the need to tell us how & when we end it.
graphic
QUOTE (CR_L1 @ Oct 17 2008, 06:43 PM) *
This is one of those “Prolife” arguments which will never end, we all have the choice of how we live our lives so why is it people feel the need to tell us how & when we end it.


This isn't strictly a case of telling us how and when we end our lives. It's a case of someone assisting us in the act. I don't for one minute believe his parents loved him any less than I love my children but, as I understand it, UK law states that it is illegal to assist someone to end their lives, yet no action seems to be taken against those who break that law. I sympathise with those people who are terminally ill and are living a slow and painful death and can understand why they might end their lives. His parents must have gone through agony watching him die but this young man wasn't terminally ill and even if he felt that suicide was best the course for him to take, I still think it was much too soon after his injury for him to have made his decision logically because he didn't have the opportunity to experience what life might offer. Whilst we're all different, Dave Bishopston's experience conveys my feelings/hopes perfectly. Now it gets complicated....I hope no one feels I'm contradicting myself, but I read the link Jimwa gave and feel it's completely different. That individual requested that his life support machine be switched off. I think it's different because a machine was keeping that person alive whereas Daniel wasn't dependent on any life support system. Whichever way we see it, it's still very sad and tragic and although it's something I could never imagine me assisting with I feel for his parents. I pray I'll never be in a similar situation to have to prove it.
Webwych
I'm with Jimwa on this one - it's a very sad situation and it's nobody's place to judge them - the young man in question or his family.

If a person wants to end their own life with dignity, that's entirely their business.

If there's any suggestion that mental health services failed him, i.e. failing to diagnose and treat depression then yes of course we need to ask questions, but if someone makes a calm decision to end their own life, it's nobody else's place to forbid them that choice, on the grounds of their own very subjective value system. We all as disabled people want autonomy and for some that means having the right to decide exactly when their life ends with dignity. Personaly I would like to see living wills that are recognised by law to clarify people's wishes.

Far from not loving, him I think his parents were very brave and selfless to let him go even though it obviously broke their hearts.
Tinbasher
I heard a statement from his parents that he could not live what he saw as a "Second class life" and this is the saddest thing for me and perhaps the most dangerous thing for us all. That intellegent people believe a disabled life is a second class one.

How utterly, utterly sad that this young man should be helped to do this so soon after his injury. How sad that he never lived to have children or find a life partner or have a full and fruitful career. How sad that the many lives he would have touched won't be touched by him, those who would have loved him or be loved by him will never know. I certainly wasn't psychologically ready to decide such a thing for probably years and I was an adult with a lot more life experience.

I don't often shed a tear for a stranger but I did today for what he didnt belive could be and for all the quads and tetras I know whos lives are rich and who add something to the diversity and strength of humanity.

Tin
Unbreakable
QUOTE
I heard a statement from his parents that he could not live what he saw as a "Second class life" and this is the saddest thing for me and perhaps the most dangerous thing for us all. That intellegent people believe a disabled life is a second class one.

How utterly, utterly sad that this young man should be helped to do this so soon after his injury. How sad that he never lived to have children or find a life partner or have a full and fruitful career. How sad that the many lives he would have touched won't be touched by him, those who would have loved him or be loved by him will never know. I certainly wasn't psychologically ready to decide such a thing for probably years and I was an adult with a lot more life experience.

I don't often shed a tear for a stranger but I did today for what he didnt belive could be and for all the quads and tetras I know whos lives are rich and who add something to the diversity and strength of humanity.


Well said, Tinbasher. I don't have much more to add. I think it is dangerous for society to see us as "second class" and only fit for assisted suicide. Assisted suicide may have its place with teminal illness and such, but in this case it is a waste of a perfectly viable life and furthermore it cheapens the lives of the rest of us in the paralyzed community.

An interesting note here; why did he go to all the trouble of going to Switzerland and dragging his parents into the whole situation? Seems like if he just wanted to kill himself and be done with it, there would have been other, cheaper solutions. For instance, nomis' bottle of scotch/g-string/daffodil/busy highway solution. Roll right out into traffic, problem solved. Or, I'd like to think in Merry Olde England there would have been a nice, picturesque cliff to hurtle off of, with a satisfying splat at the bottom. Cheaper than a plane ticket and suicide suite in Switzerland!
topperf
QUOTE
and furthermore it cheapens the lives of the rest of us in the paralyzed community.


You are a whole new way of out of reach.

My heart goes out to his family.
Theresar360
QUOTE (topperf @ Oct 17 2008, 04:16 PM) *
QUOTE
and furthermore it cheapens the lives of the rest of us in the paralyzed community.


You are a whole new way of out of reach.

My heart goes out to his family.

I am sad for all involved. I can not imagine my little granddaughter ever being that sad and depressed about her situation. I hope that as she grows up we can do all that we can to help her cope and have a happy and fulfilling life. Sure being paralyzed is not what any of us would want for our lives but we still have a life. It will be what you want it to be and with loving support from your family it can be happy, loving and fulfilling.....Theresa
JT80
i have spent some time thinking about this horrible situation in light of the prolific media interest in this case.
whilst its not something i want to do, i don't feel anyone can impose their life beliefs on any other person and the path they choose.
it must be the hardest thing for a parent to be asked by a child and to respect a child in such a tragic wish takes enormous courage. to be able to say you wouldnt allow your child to do it means you are in the more enviable position of it not being a reality.

as for reporters hanging around their house - just leave them alone to grieve.
curbyi
When you hear someone has committed suicide by jumping in front of a train do you think to yourself that person had no right to take his or her own life?

No you don't so why is this situation different?

(Actually to go off on a tangent such a way to kill yourself is utterly selfish as it could traumatise the train driver for life)

Anyway I digress.

It was his life to do as he wished whether he was right or wrong in you or my eyes is irrelevant.

Maybe in time he may of changed his mind and decided that life was worth living who knows but that's his choice.

As for his parents I have a great deal of respect for them.

I am finding at the age of 33 that somehow my disability and occasional reliance on my family for help (principally my mother) means she has in her mind a entitlement to contribute to the decision-making in my life.

This drives me insane and so to see this lad's parents respecting him as an adult and allowing him to make his own decisions without judgement I think it is extremely honourable.

Let us not forget that this will probably end their lives as they knew it and any intervention by the CPS and any punishment and persecution from the state will never match the pain that they feel inside.

I hope he found the peace that he seeked and is once again getting down and dirty in a rugby scrum in heaven.

topperf
Thank you curbyi, I can only agree with you, well put.
Unbreakable
QUOTE
i have spent some time thinking about this horrible situation in light of the prolific media interest in this case.
whilst its not something i want to do, i don't feel anyone can impose their life beliefs on any other person and the path they choose.
it must be the hardest thing for a parent to be asked by a child and to respect a child in such a tragic wish takes enormous courage. to be able to say you wouldnt allow your child to do it means you are in the more enviable position of it not being a reality.

as for reporters hanging around their house - just leave them alone to grieve.


I disagree. When asked by the child, a loving parent would see it for the immature nonsense request that it is. "enormous courage"? Hardly. More like enormous spinelessness and the desire to cave into immature demands from children who have not come to terms with their life situation. True enornmous courage would be facing the reality of what had happened and moving on with life.

However, after talking about this with my wife this weekend, she put another perspective on this situation for me. Her take on the situation: "It takes alot of guts and strength to live paralyzed and maybe he wasn't up to it. It's not for everybody." I dunno. I guess we'll never know now. That is the tragic thing.
evilmac64
QUOTE (curbyi @ Oct 20 2008, 03:26 PM) *
When you hear someone has committed suicide by jumping in front of a train do you think to yourself that person had no right to take his or her own life?

No you don't so why is this situation different?

(Actually to go off on a tangent such a way to kill yourself is utterly selfish as it could traumatise the train driver for life)

Anyway I digress.

It was his life to do as he wished whether he was right or wrong in you or my eyes is irrelevant.

Maybe in time he may of changed his mind and decided that life was worth living who knows but that's his choice.

As for his parents I have a great deal of respect for them.

I am finding at the age of 33 that somehow my disability and occasional reliance on my family for help (principally my mother) means she has in her mind a entitlement to contribute to the decision-making in my life.

This drives me insane and so to see this lad's parents respecting him as an adult and allowing him to make his own decisions without judgement I think it is extremely honourable.

Let us not forget that this will probably end their lives as they knew it and any intervention by the CPS and any punishment and persecution from the state will never match the pain that they feel inside.

I hope he found the peace that he seeked and is once again getting down and dirty in a rugby scrum in heaven.


ter
I agree 100 percent . I hope he found peace on the other side.
Trinity
QUOTE (curbyi @ Oct 20 2008, 03:26 PM) *
When you hear someone has committed suicide by jumping in front of a train do you think to yourself that person had no right to take his or her own life?

No you don't so why is this situation different?

(Actually to go off on a tangent such a way to kill yourself is utterly selfish as it could traumatise the train driver for life)

Anyway I digress.

It was his life to do as he wished whether he was right or wrong in you or my eyes is irrelevant.

Maybe in time he may of changed his mind and decided that life was worth living who knows but that's his choice.

As for his parents I have a great deal of respect for them.

I am finding at the age of 33 that somehow my disability and occasional reliance on my family for help (principally my mother) means she has in her mind a entitlement to contribute to the decision-making in my life.

This drives me insane and so to see this lad's parents respecting him as an adult and allowing him to make his own decisions without judgement I think it is extremely honourable.

Let us not forget that this will probably end their lives as they knew it and any intervention by the CPS and any punishment and persecution from the state will never match the pain that they feel inside.

I hope he found the peace that he seeked and is once again getting down and dirty in a rugby scrum in heaven.



Very well said Curbyi,
I couldn't agree more with what you have posted.

With or without the criminal investigation, Dan's parents will never be the same again. At the end of the day they have lost their son. Their only crime seems to be to not have let him die alone.

Not really a crime in my eyes.
curbyi
QUOTE (Unbreakable @ Oct 20 2008, 03:35 PM) *
QUOTE
i have spent some time thinking about this horrible situation in light of the prolific media interest in this case.
whilst its not something i want to do, i don't feel anyone can impose their life beliefs on any other person and the path they choose.
it must be the hardest thing for a parent to be asked by a child and to respect a child in such a tragic wish takes enormous courage. to be able to say you wouldnt allow your child to do it means you are in the more enviable position of it not being a reality.

as for reporters hanging around their house - just leave them alone to grieve.


I disagree. When asked by the child, a loving parent would see it for the immature nonsense request that it is. "enormous courage"? Hardly. More like enormous spinelessness and the desire to cave into immature demands from children who have not come to terms with their life situation. True enornmous courage would be facing the reality of what had happened and moving on with life.

However, after talking about this with my wife this weekend, she put another perspective on this situation for me. Her take on the situation: "It takes alot of guts and strength to live paralyzed and maybe he wasn't up to it. It's not for everybody." I dunno. I guess we'll never know now. That is the tragic thing.



No child involved he was a 23 year old man, so why start talking about children ?

Although i agree quads living and taking care of business are double hard bastards!!
Unbreakable
QUOTE
No child involved he was a 23 year old man, so why start talking about children ?

Although i agree quads living and taking care of business are double hard bastards!!


He was the child of his parents. His parents were involved in this brouhaha. We are all somebody's children.

And if he was truly an independent man, not a child, he'd not be needing to take his parents with him where he goes, now would he? Seems to me he still had a child's mindset. Don't try to lift up a 23 year old guy who drags his parents along with him on a trip to go commit suicide as a paragon of maturity and manhood. You are not exactly making a case for yourself. Anyway you put it this is a tragic thing.
Trinity
QUOTE (Unbreakable @ Oct 20 2008, 04:47 PM) *
And if he was truly an independent man, not a child, he'd not be needing to take his parents with him where he goes, now would he?


Who ever said anything about him being independent?

If he had his independence then he may not have felt the way he did. It's easy to talk from a para's perspective, independence is the norm not the exception as it often is with tetraplegic injuries
Unbreakable
QUOTE
Who ever said anything about him being independent?

If he had his independence then he may not have felt the way he did. It's easy to talk from a para's perspective, independence is the norm not the exception as it often is with tetraplegic injuries


There you bring up a whole other issue. A bigger consideration when speaking of SCI is "complete or incomplete" and not "para or quad". And how can YOU speak of what independence is like for a quad, when you are a para like me, trinity?
CR_L1
QUOTE
I disagree. When asked by the child, a loving parent would see it for the immature nonsense request that it is. "enormous courage"? Hardly. More like enormous spinelessness and the desire to cave into immature demands from children who have not come to terms with their life situation. True enornmous courage would be facing the reality of what had happened and moving on with life.

However, after talking about this with my wife this weekend, she put another perspective on this situation for me. Her take on the situation: "It takes alot of guts and strength to live paralyzed and maybe he wasn't up to it. It's not for everybody." I dunno. I guess we'll never know now. That is the tragic thing.

Unbreakable, I’m sorry mate reading your posts, have you lost the plot?
Your talking as though this guy is simply a child (IMMATURE NONESENCE) where are you coming from….
This guy was an adult & yes not as many years behind him as you or me but his life ended when he got injured. Rugby was his life as most sports are to sportsman, especially rugby players it’s a deeply passionate way of life for them in this country. (A MANS SPORT)

As for posting: "enormous courage"? Hardly. More like enormous spinelessness and the desire to cave into immature demands from children who have not come to terms with their life situation.
I really can’t post what I want to say about you on this statement other than, it’s people like you who give Americans a bad name..

Views such as yours are better off kept to yourself, don’t you think his parents for the rest of their lives will be thinking WHAT IF.
Spinelessness is those that would rather watch someone suffer then let them go with dignity.

I make NO apologises to Unbreakable for this post but do to anyone else that may find this post wrong.
Unbreakable
QUOTE
Unbreakable, I’m sorry mate reading your posts, have you lost the plot?
Your talking as though this guy is simply a child (IMMATURE NONESENCE) where are you coming from….
This guy was an adult & yes not as many years behind him as you or me but his life ended when he got injured. Rugby was his life as most sports are to sportsman, especially rugby players it’s a deeply passionate way of life for them in this country. (A MANS SPORT)

As for posting: "enormous courage"? Hardly. More like enormous spinelessness and the desire to cave into immature demands from children who have not come to terms with their life situation.
I really can’t post what I want to say about you on this statement other than, it’s people like you who give Americans a bad name..

Views such as yours are better off kept to yourself, don’t you think his parents for the rest of their lives will be thinking WHAT IF.
Spinelessness is those that would rather watch someone suffer then let them go with dignity.

I make NO apologises to Unbreakable for this post but do to anyone else that may find this post wrong.



His actions (hastily ending his life) indicate a high level of immaturity regardless of his actual numerical age. As I said before, he could have gone on to play wheelchair rugby.

Suffering would be if he had cancer or another terminal illness, not paralysis. Sure, if he wants to commit suicide it's his choice, but notice that he had to leave your country to do it legally in a clinical setting, so others must think that there is something wrong with it as well. If it was perfectly acceptable what he did, he shouldn't have had to fly all the way to Switzerland. Or he could have taken the shortcut I suggested and just rolled off a cliff.
CR_L1
QUOTE
His actions (hastily ending his life) indicate a high level of immaturity regardless of his actual numerical age. As I said before, he could have gone on to play wheelchair rugby.

Suffering would be if he had cancer or another terminal illness, not paralysis. Sure, if he wants to commit suicide it's his choice, but notice that he had to leave your country to do it legally in a clinical setting, so others must think that there is something wrong with it as well. If it was perfectly acceptable what he did, he shouldn't have had to fly all the way to Switzerland. Or he could have taken the shortcut I suggested and just rolled off a cliff.

You are one small minded little man..
You must have a different view on the meaning of suffering, rolling off a cliff or doing a bottle of pills is no dignified or guaranteed way of going.
curbyi
QUOTE (Unbreakable @ Oct 20 2008, 05:29 PM) *
QUOTE
Unbreakable, I'm sorry mate reading your posts, have you lost the plot?
Your talking as though this guy is simply a child (IMMATURE NONESENCE) where are you coming from….
This guy was an adult & yes not as many years behind him as you or me but his life ended when he got injured. Rugby was his life as most sports are to sportsman, especially rugby players it's a deeply passionate way of life for them in this country. (A MANS SPORT)

As for posting: "enormous courage"? Hardly. More like enormous spinelessness and the desire to cave into immature demands from children who have not come to terms with their life situation.
I really can't post what I want to say about you on this statement other than, it's people like you who give Americans a bad name..

Views such as yours are better off kept to yourself, don't you think his parents for the rest of their lives will be thinking WHAT IF.
Spinelessness is those that would rather watch someone suffer then let them go with dignity.

I make NO apologises to Unbreakable for this post but do to anyone else that may find this post wrong.



His actions (hastily ending his life) indicate a high level of immaturity regardless of his actual numerical age. As I said before, he could have gone on to play wheelchair rugby.

Suffering would be if he had cancer or another terminal illness, not paralysis. Sure, if he wants to commit suicide it's his choice, but notice that he had to leave your country to do it legally in a clinical setting, so others must think that there is something wrong with it as well. If it was perfectly acceptable what he did, he shouldn't have had to fly all the way to Switzerland. Or he could have taken the shortcut I suggested and just rolled off a cliff.


Lets all chill a bit families should not fight.

Like Ringo said "Peace and love" ohh and "No more F##ing autographs"
Unbreakable
QUOTE
You are one small minded little man..
You must have a different view on the meaning of suffering, rolling off a cliff or doing a bottle of pills is no dignified or guaranteed way of going.



Nah, but this guy, in your words is a MANLY rugby player, who plays rugby, A MAN'S SPORT. Why would he want to mess about with sissy needles and whatnot in Switzerland? Might as well be MANLY about it and be a REAL MAN and roll off a cliff and take a chance, you know? If he REALLY wanted to go out with a bang in a MANLY fashion, perhaps he should have gone to Pamplona, Spain for the running of the bulls?

I'm being sarcastic here. In my eyes if you really wanted to tout how manly this guy was, you would have made a better case if he would have NOT commited suicide, and was living on his own independently as a quad. Now THAT'S manly. Just leave it to say that this is a tragic case, and this guy will never get a chance to realize his potential or how rewarding the paralyzed lifestyle can be. His loss.
CR_L1
QUOTE (Unbreakable @ Oct 20 2008, 06:15 PM) *
QUOTE
You are one small minded little man..
You must have a different view on the meaning of suffering, rolling off a cliff or doing a bottle of pills is no dignified or guaranteed way of going.



Nah, but this guy, in your words is a MANLY rugby player, who plays rugby, A MAN'S SPORT. Why would he want to mess about with sissy needles and whatnot in Switzerland? Might as well be MANLY about it and be a REAL MAN and roll off a cliff and take a chance, you know? If he REALLY wanted to go out with a bang in a MANLY fashion, perhaps he should have gone to Pamplona, Spain for the running of the bulls?

I'm being sarcastic here. In my eyes if you really wanted to tout how manly this guy was, you would have made a better case if he would have NOT commited suicide, and was living on his own independently as a quad. Now THAT'S manly. Just leave it to say that this is a tragic case, and this guy will never get a chance to realize his potential or how rewarding the paralyzed lifestyle can be. His loss.

Yer who knows he could have become a manly STAY-AT-HOME-DAD
Oh I'm being sarcastic now...
Unbreakable
QUOTE
Yer who knows he could have become a manly STAY-AT-HOME-DAD
Oh I'm being sarcastic now...


smile.gif Damn right! I fear no poopy diaper! This pretty much sums it up right here: http://www.break.com/index/stay-home-dad-rap.html
skeaman
I know no one is blameing he for commiting suicid.If you are looking for the one's to blame try the Docter's Scientist's Goverment for thay will not push on push on and try human trial's any thing is better nothing .Then we have the church and we have the do gooder's thay are against Embro stemcell's work.Thay say it is Destroying life. How can you destroy a life that has not begun. No donght some one will say other thing's if we where to get some kind of cure out of it.Let us take it and you's don't How simpel is that
love&hate
1 word.. weak

He chosen the easy way out. Hate quiters and his parents should be ashamed.
Unbreakable
QUOTE
1 word.. weak

He chosen the easy way out. Hate quiters and his parents should be ashamed.


Glad I'm not the only one who sees things this way.
stevensgirl14
I agree with love&hate. Very rarely do our lives turn out the way we had planned in our story book imaginations. But....life goes on. My fiance IS a single father, he didn't have the option to give up.
Dave Bishopstone
I am so sorry that the deceased regarded himself and by implication others with SCI as living a 'second class existence'

As the parent of an SCI son, he (my son) has demonstrated to me and all who meet him, the qualities of a 'first class' human being!
Unbreakable
QUOTE
I am so sorry that the deceased regarded himself and by implication others with SCI as living a second class existence'

As the parent of an SCI son, he (my son) has demonstrated to me and all who meet him, the qualities of a first class human being!


Bravo! I completely agree. If only you could have told this to that rugby player's parents before he went and killed himself. Maybe they could have talked him out of it and prevented a tragedy...
Dave Bishopstone
QUOTE (Unbreakable @ Oct 20 2008, 09:23 PM) *
QUOTE
I am so sorry that the deceased regarded himself and by implication others with SCI as living a second class existence'

As the parent of an SCI son, he (my son) has demonstrated to me and all who meet him, the qualities of a first class human being!


Bravo! I completely agree. If only you could have told this to that rugby player's parents before he went and killed himself. Maybe they could have talked him out of it and prevented a tragedy...


I suspect some tried, obviously none succeeded
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