[Apparelyzed]

Posted on behalf of Raybonda

New Years Honours List Snub For Paralympians

So much for all these years fighting discrimination,

Yesterday it was reported on the BBC News that all the gold medalists from Beijing had been awarded OBEs.

But hang on,

I contacted my niece who gained a gold in the Paralympics to congratulate her, ‘ no, not us ‘ she said, only the able bodied athletes!

Whaaaaaaaaaat!

I looked a bit further and lo and behold, 19 out of 19 gold medallists did get OBEs, but here's the thing, they are all able bodied!

3 disabled athletes gained an OBE, But, they were all multiple gold medalists, it seems that 2 golds is a minimum to be considered for an OBE if you are disabled , yet 1 if you are AB!

How many medalists (single gold) were awarded an OBE?

Answer

Able bodied: 19
Disabled: 0

Also, the disabled guy who attained 4 golds got an OBE, not a Knighthood.

The AB cyclist Chris Hoy who won 3 golds was made a knight.

And many of the other paralympians got no awards at all although they gained gold medals.

Now it seems strange to me that every able bodied gold medallist got their OBE, yet no disabled athlete was awarded the same.

Is this some strange coincidence?

Is the queen a raving anti disabled bigot?

Has Gordon Brown had anything to say?

Or do you have to have a perfect body if you’re a guy or blond hair nice teeth and a good speaking voice to qualify for an award.?

I think it nearer the mark that this government shouts EQUALITY from the roof tops, yet the two faced politicians (who want these athletes to be role models) simply lie through their teeth only giving lip service to the equality, which, they insist is the right of every citizen of the U.K.

This obvious award situation only serves to reinforce the truth,

We are 2nd class citizens, not worthy in the eyes of government of equal treatment as able-bodied people.

They want everyone to observe the DDA, maybe they should look nearer to home and not preach to honest folk.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this subject, including the whole equality scene. Maybe no politician noticed this ?

Yeah that’s right, it slipped by them ,yeah that’s it, yeah !

Ray

[nomis]

I can see it's going to cause a right stink and it is a bad look. But I'm not sure we should assume paraOlympic status is equal to Olympic status. They are not in the same league. It might have been diplomatic to give OBEs to the Olympic gold medallists and a special inscribed teaspoon to the paraOlympians.

[Scribbler]

I was upset that the queen gave a reception for the AB Olympic Champions but the poor Paralympians have to wait until February. Why not all together? Its only a reception not a huge State Banquet!!!

[russ1]

Personally I'd say that the honours was about right - lets take for example a swimmer

Ab 100 freestyle swimmer has one class and has to compete against a large field of other ab athletes- most of the world's population could compete against them. A disabled swimmer fits into one of 10 classes so there's 10 gold medals for the 100m freestyle. If there was only one disabled gold the pool of disabled athletes would be hugely smaller than for AB athletes but with the class system each class has a pool of potential athletes that is numbers of orders of magnitudes lower than for the AB atheletes and so unfortunately while it might be very PC to say that the disabled athletes are equal to the AB's the maths just doesn't add up to support the contention. It is undeniably easier to win gold as a disabled athlete than as an AB athlete - fact. The honours list rightly reflects this.

[raybonda]

russ1, on Jan 4 2009, 03:40 PM, said:

Personally I'd say that the honours was about right - lets take for example a swimmer

Ab 100 freestyle swimmer has one class and has to compete against a large field of other ab athletes- most of the world's population could compete against them. A disabled swimmer fits into one of 10 classes so there's 10 gold medals for the 100m freestyle. If there was only one disabled gold the pool of disabled athletes would be hugely smaller than for AB athletes but with the class system each class has a pool of potential athletes that is numbers of orders of magnitudes lower than for the AB atheletes and so unfortunately while it might be very PC to say that the disabled athletes are equal to the AB's the maths just doesn't add up to support the contention. It is undeniably easier to win gold as a disabled athlete than as an AB athlete - fact. The honours list rightly reflects this.

sorry Russ,
heavyweight boxer versus a fly weight?
same principle as you advocate.
Ray

[JT80]

not bothered by this at all. simple fact is that winning a paralympic medal is 'easier' than winning an olympic gold. the potential pool of competitors must be a 1000th for that of AB medal. not taking anything away from those who win medals in their own class, some achievement, but winning 100m paraylympic is not the same as winning 100m gold. it never will be.
i can only think of 2 female athletes who have been honoured with the title dame for services to athletics-one is in a chair.
would we expect an open top bus parade through london if GB won wheelchair rugby world cup as happened after world cup 03?

[greybeard]

Frankly the whole honours system stinks and should be scrapped. It has become so de-valued that it is now no more than a cheap ploy for governement to gain a few extra supporters.

As far as sports personalities are concerned, I fail to see why anyone should be, or expect to be, "honoured" simply for pursuing their hobby. Whatever happened to "taking part is reward enough"?

Having said that, I would far rather see them receive awards than so called celebrities and civil servants!

[dom]

its all very well for someone to say they deserve this award or that award but personally i could'nt give a hoot about receiving an mbe or obe etc etc as i know we are ALL equal and don't need a royal family telling us we are members of their institution.as far as i am concerned they are outdated

[raybonda]

yes dom , i agree, but if there is an award system ,,,,,,,it still hould be a fair one and i dont considfer this fair.
Ra

[oldwheelz]

In Canada the " Athlete of the year " was a olympic wheelchair racer.

[russ1]

raybonda, on Jan 4 2009, 04:58 PM, said:

sorry Russ,
heavyweight boxer versus a fly weight?
same principle as you advocate.
Ray

Sorry not the same at all - it's not a sport thing that I'm arguing but a maths thing, the number of potential other competitors that a disabled athlete has to (potentially) compete against is a tiny tiny fraction of those that an AB athlete has to (potentially) compete against.

Winning a paralympic medal is just easier than winning an AB medal. I've every admiration for the dedication of any athlete that competes at any olympics or paralympics (including close friends in paralympics) but it's just not the same.

Lets take my class in wheelchair racing (just as an example, never been in one in my life) - anyone that's essentially got a T1 to T12 SCI - how many of those are there worldwide? a few tens of thousands, maybe a hundred thousand, possibly even two hundred thousand (but figures this high seem unlikely), compared with a worldwide AB population of over 6 billion that someone running an athletics race is up against, that gives the disabled athlete an immediate advantage of the order of 50,000 times (or between 4 and 5 orders of magnitude)over an AB athlete - even taking a boxing weight category you have the hundred thousand against half a billion (which is why IMHO a boxing medal isn't as difficult to get as a running or swimming medal). You just have to do the maths to see that comparing AB olympic medals with paralympic medals is like comparing apples with oranges.

This post has been edited by russ1: 05 January 2009 - 12:31 AM

[JT80]

russ1, on Jan 5 2009, 12:26 AM, said:

raybonda, on Jan 4 2009, 04:58 PM, said:

sorry Russ,
heavyweight boxer versus a fly weight?
same principle as you advocate.
Ray

Sorry not the same at all - it's not a sport thing that I'm arguing but a maths thing, the number of potential other competitors that a disabled athlete has to (potentially) compete against is a tiny tiny fraction of those that an AB athlete has to (potentially) compete against.

Winning a paralympic medal is just easier than winning an AB medal. I've every admiration for the dedication of any athlete that competes at any olympics or paralympics (including close friends in paralympics) but it's just not the same.

Lets take my class in wheelchair racing (just as an example, never been in one in my life) - anyone that's essentially got a T1 to T12 SCI - how many of those are there worldwide? a few tens of thousands, maybe a hundred thousand, possibly even two hundred thousand (but figures this high seem unlikely), compared with a worldwide AB population of over 6 billion that someone running an athletics race is up against, that gives the disabled athlete an immediate advantage of the order of 50,000 times (or between 4 and 5 orders of magnitude)over an AB athlete - even taking a boxing weight category you have the hundred thousand against half a billion (which is why IMHO a boxing medal isn't as difficult to get as a running or swimming medal). You just have to do the maths to see that comparing AB olympic medals with paralympic medals is like comparing apples with oranges.

i'm with russ, its a maths thing.

[Slowlegs]

I can see both sides of it. Yes, there are a greater number of able bodied people out there but the paralympians are nearly also top of their field. I say nearly because some people are excluded from the paralympics (a supposedly inclusionary area of sport) through medications they have to take (as opposed to choosing to take like drug cheats do) so although they are technically at the top of their sport they are not quite in my opinion.

I still feel that on the day they were top of the available competitors, like the AB people are. It may not be such a long slog getting there as it is for AB athletes but they have still come first on the day so should get the rewards and recognition they deserve. Thing I would be most interested in though, does a gold medal in the paralympics as opposed to the olympics carry the same weight on a CV or in picking up members of the opposite (or same if that is what you are into) sex in bars which is where I would think it really counts in the eyes of others. Unfortunately probably not.

This post has been edited by Slowlegs: 05 January 2009 - 10:07 AM

[HiltonP]

Personally I thing this is disgraceful, but I am hardly surprised.

This happened after the 2004 Olympics/Paralympics when the Canadians gave the same award to two athletes, one an able bodied sprinter who tripped over the first hurdle and didn't finish the race, and the other who won four gold medals and a couple of world records. Hmmm . . .

I'm surprised so many posters here rate the Olympics so highly . . . some athletes are outstanding, but many are way over-rated. Here in SA our able-bodied Olympians were very poor, all talk and no delivery (plenty of excuses afterwards though!). On the other hand the disabled Paralympians were stars, breaking records and winning golds out of all proportion to SA's population.

And a question . . . There were plenty of pointed questions being asked of China and her disabled rights, etc prior to the Paralympics, but why is no-one asking questions about India? Second largest population in the world. Probably largest disabled population in the world. No medals. No placings. No reference to them at all on the official Paralympic website. Did they even field a team? I watched the entire Paralympics and I cannot recall a single mention of an Indian athlete, nor did I see them at the opening or closing ceremonies.

[Apparelyzed]

Looks like the press have picked up on the lack of parity as well.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/otherspor...medallists.html

Simon

[stellaris2]

The Lawn Tennis Association now, at long last, pay men and women equal amounts of prize money at Wimbledon, so hopefully, people are starting to realise that equality isn't necessarily directly comparable.

[nomis]

All this posting about New Year Honours is getting me more than a little upset. You see, I was yet again overlooked. Incredible, I hear you say. Flabbergasted, I suppose. I can hardly believe it myself.

The trouble seems to be the incessant focus on people who have achieved things. What about the rest? What about those who might not have achieved anything worthwhile but they also haven't done any damage. Yes, now what do you think of that?

-Has no one noticed how reliably I've rinsed and squashed plastic bottles to go in the recycling bin.
-How I've eased the morning traffic rush by not going to work.
-The oxygen I've left for others by sleeping my days away.
-The times I've eaten all the vegetables on my plate even when there hasn't been pudding.
-Does no one care that for yet another year I've refrained from killing anyone. No rapes and no bashings. I am the dream of law and order.
-In commerce I've consistently avoided ripping people off by managing never to make a profit.
-On top of that I've always been willing to offer free consultation to the government by telling them where to go.

What more do I have to do?

Sir nomis sounds ok to me. What do you think?
Arise Sir nomis and go fourth. Of course, I'd rather go first but I'll settle for that. I don't want to seem big headed.

[Scribbler]

nomis, on Jan 6 2009, 10:43 AM, said:

All this posting about New Year Honours is getting me more than a little upset. You see, I was yet again overlooked. Incredible, I hear you say. Flabbergasted, I suppose. I can hardly believe it myself.

The trouble seems to be the incessant focus on people who have achieved things. What about the rest? What about those who might not have achieved anything worthwhile but they also haven't done any damage. Yes, now what do you think of that?

-Has no one noticed how reliably I've rinsed and squashed plastic bottles to go in the recycling bin.
-How I've eased the morning traffic rush by not going to work.
-The oxygen I've left for others by sleeping my days away.
-The times I've eaten all the vegetables on my plate even when there hasn't been pudding.
-Does no one care that for yet another year I've refrained from killing anyone. No rapes and no bashings. I am the dream of law and order.
-In commerce I've consistently avoided ripping people off by managing never to make a profit.
-On top of that I've always been willing to offer free consultation to the government by telling them where to go.

What more do I have to do?

Sir nomis sounds ok to me. What do you think?
Arise Sir nomis and go fourth. Of course, I'd rather go first but I'll settle for that. I don't want to seem big headed.

That's all very well Nomis but your constant Farting is depleting the ozone layer so cancels out all the rest...

How about a wind turbine?..... That's worth a Medal....

[edlee]

Thank heavens,,,,, finally some perspective.
ed

[stellaris2]

Nomis, if Knighthoods were given out for wit and humour, you would indeed surely be Sir Nomis.

Not wanting to pee on your bonfire, however, as a NZ citizen, I don't think you'd get to go to the Palace, or see the Queen, but would have some footling little ceremony at the Commonwealth Office by some minor dignitary.

Don't let it make you bitter.......

[JT80]

its attitudes like this that cause the problems..


http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=jQB1Wi7PD1M

[edlee]

" little guys in wheelchairs" who " can't keep a rally going",,,,,,

It isn't so much an 'attitude" so much as a viewpoint. The vast majority of the AB population see it in exactly that way,,,,,,neither bad nor good,,, simply the way it is.

Not very politically correct, am I????

I was AB for a long time,, and not that long ago,,, so I can remember, easily, how I felt upon seeing handicapped sports being played,,,, and it wasn't much different from the above.

Of course, the athletes are training hard and doing their best,,,,If they beat their competition they should be awarded the gold,,,,

But,,, how much different is that from a school student who studies hard and excells in his classes and gets all As,,,,,, but rides to school on the "short bus"..... Does he make the "Deans List'??? Should he get a coveted slot at university, because of his straight A grades????

If you can say that you would not feel the value of your academic award diminished if it were exactly the same as for one who is mentally handicapped,,, then you are truly a morally superior human being,,,,,, or you are lying your ass off.

I am not,,,,,,,superior, or lying.

There are those, here, who have been disappointed that they were not allowed to play quad rugby,, because they were paras,,,,,,there are those , here, that feel that rule is a good thing.

I feel the same way about professional sports, as well,,,,, If you,,, as a female athlete, want the same money as the male athlete,,,,, then compete WITH him.

Women can play in any golf event in which the can qualify by score,,, from the same tees,,,,, men don't have that option in womens events.

So,, I guess,,, we have always had an "handicapped olympics",, at least since they allowed women only events. Women's gold medals seem to garner the same honors as the men's,,,,so it does stand to reason that those won in handicapped only events should recieve the same .

I appologize for my rambling reply,,,, it seems to be the way my mind works,, some days,,But I did clear up a few things in my own mind,,,,,I hope you didn't mind seeing the process
ed

[stellaris2]

edlee, on Jan 7 2009, 08:18 PM, said:

" little guys in wheelchairs" who " can't keep a rally going",,,,,,

It isn't so much an 'attitude" so much as a viewpoint. The vast majority of the AB population see it in exactly that way,,,,,,neither bad nor good,,, simply the way it is.

Not very politically correct, am I????

I was AB for a long time,, and not that long ago,,, so I can remember, easily, how I felt upon seeing handicapped sports being played,,,, and it wasn't much different from the above.

Of course, the athletes are training hard and doing their best,,,,If they beat their competition they should be awarded the gold,,,,

But,,, how much different is that from a school student who studies hard and excells in his classes and gets all As,,,,,, but rides to school on the "short bus"..... Does he make the "Deans List'??? Should he get a coveted slot at university, because of his straight A grades????

If you can say that you would not feel the value of your academic award diminished if it were exactly the same as for one who is mentally handicapped,,, then you are truly a morally superior human being,,,,,, or you are lying your ass off.

I am not,,,,,,,superior, or lying.

There are those, here, who have been disappointed that they were not allowed to play quad rugby,, because they were paras,,,,,,there are those , here, that feel that rule is a good thing.

I feel the same way about professional sports, as well,,,,, If you,,, as a female athlete, want the same money as the male athlete,,,,, then compete WITH him.

Women can play in any golf event in which the can qualify by score,,, from the same tees,,,,, men don't have that option in womens events.

So,, I guess,,, we have always had an "handicapped olympics",, at least since they allowed women only events. Women's gold medals seem to garner the same honors as the men's,,,,so it does stand to reason that those won in handicapped only events should recieve the same .

I appologize for my rambling reply,,,, it seems to be the way my mind works,, some days,,But I did clear up a few things in my own mind,,,,,I hope you didn't mind seeing the process
ed

Just because you were once AB, I don't think you can fairly claim that the 'vast majority of AB people' see things the same way as you. If they did, there wouldn't BE paralympic games, women's sporting events, college courses for people with learning disabilities etc. I see all these as examples of outstanding acheivement, not diminished because the participants aren't perfect Alpha males.

[nomis]

Paralympic sports should and are taken seriously. Many of these people are serious, hard-training, skilled and accomplished athletes. That in itself does not earn them automatic place with equal status of an open Olympic winner.

Paralympic sports are minority sports, are mostly limited to wealthy countries and are plagued with dubious and complicated ratings.

I wouldn't discount that one day a Paralympic sport does qualify for full Olympic status. Maybe it will be a wheelchair race free of discrimination by being open to disabled and able bodied people alike. Meanwhile, you can't expect full status when most of the world is excluded.

I'm also against admitting the egg and spoon race into the Olympics and seven-a-side rugby union (which is being considered).

[wheeliebear75]

Well when it comes to going to a banquet......us disabled folk are a fairly polite bunch.........many of us even bring our own chairs. LOL

I think it is a fair assessment to say that many of the disabled athletes not only worked just as but often harder than their able-bodied competitors, but also had to overcome many additional physical & health issues. We have made great strides all over the world towards equality......but then things like this are a real proverbial "slap in the face". I had a hard time even finding live coverage of the Para-Olympic games......all I found was highlights and replays.

It's a source of pride I'm sure that the UK has so many talented and dedicated athletes, it's just a shame that they aren't rewarded equally for their dedication and sacrifices........regardless of whether they are an Able-Bodied OR disabled athlete.

[Slowlegs]

nomis, on Jan 6 2009, 11:43 AM, said:

All this posting about New Year Honours is getting me more than a little upset. You see, I was yet again overlooked. Incredible, I hear you say. Flabbergasted, I suppose. I can hardly believe it myself.

The trouble seems to be the incessant focus on people who have achieved things. What about the rest? What about those who might not have achieved anything worthwhile but they also haven't done any damage. Yes, now what do you think of that?

-Has no one noticed how reliably I've rinsed and squashed plastic bottles to go in the recycling bin.
-How I've eased the morning traffic rush by not going to work.
-The oxygen I've left for others by sleeping my days away.
-The times I've eaten all the vegetables on my plate even when there hasn't been pudding.
-Does no one care that for yet another year I've refrained from killing anyone. No rapes and no bashings. I am the dream of law and order.
-In commerce I've consistently avoided ripping people off by managing never to make a profit.
-On top of that I've always been willing to offer free consultation to the government by telling them where to go.

What more do I have to do?

Sir nomis sounds ok to me. What do you think?
Arise Sir nomis and go fourth. Of course, I'd rather go first but I'll settle for that. I don't want to seem big headed.

Hi Nomis,
I got the letter telling you that you won't be getting your OBE. It came to my place by mistake. Apparently an out of work green MP was walking past your house during his 9 hour walking bus commute to the winz office where he was going to get an emergency benefit to pay for a conference ticket to an organic mung bean festival. He said that due to the fact you used TAP water instead of spagnum moss filtered rain water you are ineligible for the award.

On a different note, I wouldn't know if paralympic sport was as good as AB sport or not. TVNZ discriminated against all of us working disabled by playing the highlights after my bedtime. Hard to stay awake when you have to get up at 5AM for work and they put the highlights on at the peak time of 11PM with all of the infomercials. The only bits I saw was when some twat Paul Henry played only the bits he could ridicule on the breakfast show. I only managed to see it as I was off work for a couple of days sick. Mind you, what do you expect when they class Police 10-7 (like crimewatch for you foreigners) as part of their quota of Maori programming.

This post has been edited by Slowlegs: 08 January 2009 - 10:41 AM

[edlee]

Hey Stel,,,, I wasn't trying to be impolite to SCIs or ABs,,,, only telling you what MY experience has been. It is altogether possible that the majority of ABs aren't as unknowing and/or uncaring as I intimated,,,,,,,But that hasn't been MY experience,,,, both of myself and of others.

My 58 years among the walking tell me one thing and your experience tells you something else,,,,,, that's kinda how the world works, don't you think. I'm no more pleased with what I see than you are,,,, but I try to keep my eyes and ears open in the hope of seeing or hearing something different.

Quote

Haeri Mai!!! Aotearoa,,,,,, Where men are men and the sheep are nervous.

Nomis, Slowlegs,,, I saw this yesterday attached to an item about New Zealand,,,, other than the men and sheep thing,, is this in some way Maori related??
ed

[StellaLAtella]

Please forgive me. I have one question............I have read most, if not all of this, and I can't figure out what an OBE is or an MBE. Please enlighten this dim one across the pond.
Thanks,
Stella

[Slowlegs]

StellaLAtella, on Jan 9 2009, 05:30 AM, said:

Please forgive me. I have one question............I have read most, if not all of this, and I can't figure out what an OBE is or an MBE. Please enlighten this dim one across the pond.
Thanks,
Stella

Hi Stella,
I think they are as follows (not 100% sure though) OBE = Order of the British Empire
MBE = Member of the British Empire.
Both awards approved be the queen (of England) to citizens of members of the Commonwealth for service to queen and country. They scrapped them a while for some other awards I think.

This post has been edited by Slowlegs: 09 January 2009 - 05:20 AM

[Slowlegs]

edlee, on Jan 9 2009, 04:51 AM, said:

Hey Stel,,,, I wasn't trying to be impolite to SCIs or ABs,,,, only telling you what MY experience has been. It is altogether possible that the majority of ABs aren't as unknowing and/or uncaring as I intimated,,,,,,,But that hasn't been MY experience,,,, both of myself and of others.

My 58 years among the walking tell me one thing and your experience tells you something else,,,,,, that's kinda how the world works, don't you think. I'm no more pleased with what I see than you are,,,, but I try to keep my eyes and ears open in the hope of seeing or hearing something different.

Quote

Haeri Mai!!! Aotearoa,,,,,, Where men are men and the sheep are nervous.

Nomis, Slowlegs,,, I saw this yesterday attached to an item about New Zealand,,,, other than the men and sheep thing,, is this in some way Maori related??
ed

Haere Mai is a greeting and Aotearoa stands for "land of the great white cloud" which was the Maori name for New Zealand.

Most Australians will probably add to that. "Where men are men and the sheep are nervous, and anyone who owns more than five sheep can be arrested for running a brothel". Actually that is not quite correct, it is legal to own and run a brothel here now.