19 replies to this topic

[Kaz=1983]

OK I've been thinking I might try taking my push handles off and see how I go withot them but I am not sure about how it will effect me when it comes to getting up stairs and so on ... are the any quads on here who dont have push handles and could help us out ?

EDIT; and steep hills...

Edited by Kaz=1983, 10 February 2009 - 11:38 AM.

[Rotarymotion]

Hi Kaz,

First let me state that I'm not a quad, but I can tell you my experiences over the past three years of full-time wheelchair use.

Shortly after starting to use wheelchair full-time I had some nasty experiences where strangers grabbed the handles when I hesitated before going up (small) curbs. On one occassion my thumb was trapped between the brake and tyre when this happened and it was extremely painful.

I also found that strangers would push me forward when I was in a queue at the post office. I was appalled and felt humiliated. I therefore removed the push handles completely.

I need help from my wife if I am to get up steep slopes, but she just pushes on the tops of the two back uprights and that seems to work ok. She understands that I won't have handles on my chair under any circumstances. I should mention that my current outdoor chair is a RGK Hilite titanium with rigid frame. When I used a folding back chair outside, the back used to creak a bit when pushed at the top, but nothing broke. This (Quickie GPV) is now my indoor chair and since my house doesn't have any slopes, there is no pushing involved.

As I say, my circumstances are different - I had polio, but I hope the above helps.

Mark

[Bagpuss-wheels]

Kaz=1983, on Feb 10 2009, 11:36 AM, said:

OK I've been thinking I might try taking my push handles off and see how I go withot them but I am not sure about how it will effect me when it comes to getting up stairs and so on ... are the any quads on here who dont have push handles and could help us out ?

EDIT; and steep hills...

Rotarymotion, on Feb 10 2009, 12:10 PM, said:

Hi Kaz,

First let me state that I'm not a quad, but I can tell you my experiences over the past three years of full-time wheelchair use.

Shortly after starting to use wheelchair full-time I had some nasty experiences where strangers grabbed the handles when I hesitated before going up (small) curbs. On one occassion my thumb was trapped between the brake and tyre when this happened and it was extremely painful.

I also found that strangers would push me forward when I was in a queue at the post office. I was appalled and felt humiliated. I therefore removed the push handles completely.

I need help from my wife if I am to get up steep slopes, but she just pushes on the tops of the two back uprights and that seems to work ok. She understands that I won't have handles on my chair under any circumstances. I should mention that my current outdoor chair is a RGK Hilite titanium with rigid frame. When I used a folding back chair outside, the back used to creak a bit when pushed at the top, but nothing broke. This (Quickie GPV) is now my indoor chair and since my house doesn't have any slopes, there is no pushing involved.

As I say, my circumstances are different - I had polio, but I hope the above helps.

Mark

Hi Kaz & Mark,

I've been a full-time wheelchair user for over four and a half years now. My first (second hand) chair had screw-in push handles and I had the same style on my NHS Voucher chair which are very useful. The only problems with removable push handles is that they are easy to drop and (nearly) lose. The good thing about the screw-in ones is that they are strong enough to lift the chair with. I don't tend to remove my push handles frequently. I generally use them to hang my bag on the back of my chair from (so I can have my armrests to hand as I keep these in the bag on the back of the chair).

I had removed my push handles one day and forgot and left them in the car. Whilst I was able to go downhill, when it came to getting back up (even a fairly shallow slope), I was unable to manage. My poor arthritic mother had to push me using the top of the back posts which wasn't easy for her. (Thankfully I have a very high back or it wouldn't have been possible - something else to consider if thinking of doing without push handles. Especially if you are unwell or you suddenly strain something - what if you need pushing??)

I had a debate about what I should do for my new chair. I didn't want to do without push handles because I need pushing quite a lot (especially if I dislocate a shoulder or something). I also couldn't have (and didn't want) permanently attached (integral) push handles because I want to be able to remove them so that, when I am able to push myself, I don't get so many people pushing me (though if they are determines, the downside of not having push handles attached is that people then shove me in the back - it's happened several times and, because of my back problems, really hurts!) The other reason I needed removable handles was so that I can squeeze the frame into the boot of my little car. (I can't shut the rear door if the handles are attached! It's only a 'little' Kenari!) I didn't like the 'stroller'/'umbrella handle'/'bolt-on' style push handles as I thought that they would get caught on things more easily, would add more weight to the chair and be a pain to remove and carry. After looking everywhere I could and at as many manufacturers and chairs websites and pictures as possible, I saw that Küschall, Otto Bock and Quickie used 'fold down integrated push handles' on some of their chairs. (Küschall - all I believe; Quickie - Argon/Argon Ti/Neon (aka GT/GTi/GTX in the US) plus Ti and possibly others; Otto Bock - Blizzard). I asked Andy of DaVinci if it would be possible to have folding push handles and he said that they had fitted them to other chairs. My problems were solved. Push handles permanently attached so that I can't lose them and they are always to hand if/when I need them but they can fold down out of the way (and out of the way of people's grabbing hands too).

Perhaps if you need push handles at least some of the time, a good compromise between never having them (and therefore not having them when you really need them) or always having them (and having people push you out of the way like you are a trolley/shopping cart) is to have removable push handles thus giving you the best of both worlds. (Remember though that 'drop-in' push handles cannot be used to lift a chair - it needs to be screw in (or permanently attached fold-down push handles - you would need to check with the manufacturer!)

Just my Penny's-worth.
Best wishes,

Cat

>^..^<

Edited by Bagpuss-wheels, 14 February 2009 - 04:00 AM.

[nomis]

I took mine off for some time but had to remember to bolt them back in when visiting or staying with someone who had stairs and I was going to expect them to drag me up. In the end it go too much of a hassle remembering to fit them that I just left them on and we're all much happier now.

[twisted_ophelia]

I've never had push handles on any of my chairs. I do not like when people push me. And hearing you guys talk about strangers grabbing your push handles is awful! If someone did, I think I would absolutely lose it on them. The only time I don't mind someone pushing me from behind is if it's a very good friend or someone close to me and I really need the help for whatever reason ie. deep snow, really steep hill. Otherwise, it's hands off.

[Bagpuss-wheels]

twisted_ophelia, on Feb 15 2009, 05:02 PM, said:

I've never had push handles on any of my chairs. I do not like when people push me. And hearing you guys talk about strangers grabbing your push handles is awful! If someone did, I think I would absolutely lose it on them. The only time I don't mind someone pushing me from behind is if it's a very good friend or someone close to me and I really need the help for whatever reason ie. deep snow, really steep hill. Otherwise, it's hands off.

Hi,

What I forgot to mention is that I cannot push myself easily and, because my left shoulder is permanently dislocated (and dislocates more at times) as well as my right shoulder dislocating more and more frequently, my wrists are knackered too and I have to wear wrist braces on both wrists which have a metal stabilising palmar bar too. (Palmar = palm-side of hand). (I also have shoulder supports/braces too). In addition, I also have 'brittle asthma'/'severe chronic asthma'/'difficult to control asthma' and can get really severe asthma attacks at no notice (and especially if I am having to push myself).


As a result, I have no choice but to have push handles. I'd rather not need them but cannot push myself enough not to have them. I often force myself too hard to 'manage' without being pushed as I want to seem 'independent'. The problem is that by overdoing it, I frequently bring on a severe asthma attack, dislocate a shoulder (or both) or just overdo it so much that, despite being on strong painkillers 24/7, my pain levels are unbearable. Usually my mum is the only one I allow to push me (and only when I 'have' to).


Several months ago, I went to a friends hen night and was determined that I didn't want to be a 'burden' to anyone (mum wasn't there thankfully! ;) ) so I pushed myself as much as I could. There was a bit where I had no choice but to be pushed as it was far too steep for me to push myself up the hill. That night, I had to take more painkillers to 'cope' but was in more pain throughout the evening. When the painkillers wore off, I realised that, in being 'fiercely independent', I had actually disabled myself more. I had strained my shoulders and it took several weeks to 'recover'. Looking back, I shouldn't have worried so much about being a 'burden' - especially having met some of the people again - the people I didn't know before - they were genuinely offering help, they weren't 'feeling sorry for me' or 'pitying' me - they just wanted me to be able to join in. (The really frustrating thing was that when I was going home I used a Taxi (taxi as opposed to 'private hire car') and, whilst the driver was pushing me up the ramp using my push handles, another driver decided to 'help' and shoved me right in the back - just where I have some prolapsed discs! Not the end to the evening I wanted! If I hadn't had push handles, the (helpful) taxi driver wouldn't have been able to push me up his ramp so easily and may have done what the (unhelpful) driver did and push 'me' as opposed to the chair.)


My new wheelchair will have interchangeable Spinergy wheels and Yamaha JW-II push-assist add-on wheels so I can have the best of both worlds. The Yamaha JW-IIs will enable me to be able to push myself without having so much physical strain on my body. (The lightweight Spinergy wheels will also make pushing easier when using manual wheels too as they are lighter than the 'standard' metal-spoked wheels which I have on my current chair.)


The thing is, even without push handles, you still get the selfish, rude people who will push on any bit of your chair or even your shoulders (which has also happened to me and dislocated my right shoulder) to push you out of their way. (Sometimes, and this is going to sound really odd, it is 'better' to be pushed 'out of the way' by peops using your push handles than your back or shoulder.) There are unfortunately some people who think that it is 'fine' to touch a wheelchair user's chair yet, if we were to push or touch them, they would cry 'assault' and yell at us for 'daring' to touch them, little realising that our wheelchairs are essentially part of 'us' and are to be included as part of our 'personal space'. I've had people lean over my knees and put their face in mine - something they wouldn't tolerate if someone put their face as close to their face. I've also had people take my brakes off (without my permission). I frequently get people pushing and leaning over (and sometimes on) me at the supermarket to reach something from the shelves with an "it's all right, I can reach"! All these things have no or little bearing on whether I have push handles attached or not. (Oh, and I have 'lost it' with some peops - especially the person who dislocated my shoulder! Not something I 'choose' to do but I 'lost it' because of the pain it caused!)


It's all a matter of personal choice. Fold-down handles are my compromise. There when I need them but can be folded out of the way when I don't want them up/used etc. If you can manage without needing push handles, great. If you often need them, fold-down or removable push handles can actually 'aid' you independence by allowing you to have people you want push you so you save energy for things you 'want' to do.


Quickie folding push handles on an 'Argon' wheelchair. (Called 'Argon' in the UK and 'GT' in the US).


Best wishes,
Cat
>^..^<

Attached Thumbnails

• 
• 

Edited by Bagpuss-wheels, 16 February 2009 - 03:58 PM.

[twisted_ophelia]

Bagpuss-wheels, on Feb 16 2009, 10:24 AM, said:

As a result, I have no choice but to have push handles. I'd rather not need them but cannot push myself enough not to have them. I often force myself too hard to 'manage' without being pushed as I want to seem 'independent'. The problem is that by overdoing it, I frequently bring on a severe asthma attack, dislocate a shoulder (or both) or just overdo it so much that, despite being on strong painkillers 24/7, my pain levels are unbearable. Usually my mum is the only one I allow to push me (and only when I 'have' to).


My new wheelchair will have interchangeable Spinergy wheels and Yamaha JW-II push-assist add-on wheels so I can have the best of both worlds. The Yamaha JW-IIs will enable me to be able to push myself without having so much physical strain on my body. (The lightweight Spinergy wheels will also make pushing easier when using manual wheels too as they are lighter than the 'standard' metal-spoked wheels which I have on my current chair.)


The thing is, even without push handles, you still get the selfish, rude people who will push on any bit of your chair or even your shoulders (which has also happened to me and dislocated my right shoulder) to push you out of their way. (Sometimes, and this is going to sound really odd, it is 'better' to be pushed 'out of the way' by peops using your push handles than your back or shoulder.) There are unfortunately some people who think that it is 'fine' to touch a wheelchair user's chair yet, if we were to push or touch them, they would cry 'assault' and yell at us for 'daring' to touch them, little realising that our wheelchairs are essentially part of 'us' and are to be included as part of our 'personal space'. I've had people lean over my knees and put their face in mine - something they wouldn't tolerate if someone put their face as close to their face. I've also had people take my brakes off (without my permission). I frequently get people pushing and leaning over (and sometimes on) me at the supermarket to reach something from the shelves with an "it's all right, I can reach"! All these things have no or little bearing on whether I have push handles attached or not. (Oh, and I have 'lost it' with some peops - especially the person who dislocated my shoulder! Not something I 'choose' to do but I 'lost it' because of the pain it caused!)

That sounds so painful. You definitely should not be trying to cause yourself more pain and stress to your body. Have you considered a power chair, maybe? That would eliminate you having to rely on anyone to push you? Power chairs are costly though and not everyone is comfortable using one when they can use a manual. The fold down handles are a good idea, best of both worlds for ya!

I've not had anyone push my chair from behind. I've had strangers move my chair when I'm not in it without asking me, like if I'm at a restaurant I will usually transfer into a regular chair and keep my chair beside me so I can just sit normally at the table with everyone else. Depending on how the person does it, I don't mind as much, I'll just reach out and pull my chair back to me. I've not had a stranger physically push me by the shoulders. I've definitely had people get too close for comfort, like lean over me, put their face two inches from mine, speak really loudly to me, all that crap, but not the actually moving. I find people are more touchy-feely with me in a way that is meant to be nice, like they will be being over-polite to me and put their hand on my shoulder quickly or whatever, like a pat. I'm not a fan of this but I usually just wheel backwards a few inches away from them to kind of gently indicate that I'm not a little doll to be patted and coddled. People will reach over me like I'm not even there, get in front of me in line, that type of stuff, but I'm very vocal and so are most of my friends and the person will generally regret doing it pretty quickly. I find that my friends take more offense to things like that than I do and I've had friends stand there yelling at people for shit while I'm like oh god relax...

Edited to add that I just remembered that, about a month ago, I went snow tubing and the snow tubing park manager was a real idiot. Dude started moving my legs around for me while I was in the tube, like actually picking them up and moving them around, trying to make me more "comfortable" in the tube. So invasive!!! I was so not impressed. I didn't freak out, I just took hold of my own legs and moved them away from his hands which made it pretty clear to him. He was a total tool--he repeatedly asked me if I could stand or walk at all (I said no about 4 or 5 times) and then goes "Well, what's wrong with you?". Me: "Paralyzed." Him: "Why?". Me: "Tubing." You should have seen the look on his face. Then I said, no, not really, car accident and he started asking me for details, like when, where, how... some people are just rude and ignorant beyond belief.

Edited by twisted_ophelia, 16 February 2009 - 08:09 PM.

[Bagpuss-wheels]

twisted_ophelia, on Feb 16 2009, 07:44 PM, said:

That sounds so painful. You definitely should not be trying to cause yourself more pain and stress to your body. Have you considered a power chair, maybe? That would eliminate you having to rely on anyone to push you? Power chairs are costly though and not everyone is comfortable using one when they can use a manual. The fold down handles are a good idea, best of both worlds for ya!

I've not had anyone push my chair from behind. I've had strangers move my chair when I'm not in it without asking me, like if I'm at a restaurant I will usually transfer into a regular chair and keep my chair beside me so I can just sit normally at the table with everyone else. Depending on how the person does it, I don't mind as much, I'll just reach out and pull my chair back to me. I've not had a stranger physically push me by the shoulders. I've definitely had people get too close for comfort, like lean over me, put their face two inches from mine, speak really loudly to me, all that crap, but not the actually moving. I find people are more touchy-feely with me in a way that is meant to be nice, like they will be being over-polite to me and put their hand on my shoulder quickly or whatever, like a pat. I'm not a fan of this but I usually just wheel backwards a few inches away from them to kind of gently indicate that I'm not a little doll to be patted and coddled. People will reach over me like I'm not even there, get in front of me in line, that type of stuff, but I'm very vocal and so are most of my friends and the person will generally regret doing it pretty quickly. I find that my friends take more offence to things like that than I do and I've had friends stand there yelling at people for shit while I'm like oh god relax...

Edited to add that I just remembered that, about a month ago, I went snow tubing and the snow tubing park manager was a real idiot. Dude started moving my legs around for me while I was in the tube, like actually picking them up and moving them around, trying to make me more "comfortable" in the tube. So invasive!!! I was so not impressed. I didn't freak out, I just took hold of my own legs and moved them away from his hands which made it pretty clear to him. He was a total tool--he repeatedly asked me if I could stand or walk at all (I said no about 4 or 5 times) and then goes "Well, what's wrong with you?". Me: "Paralyzed." Him: "Why?". Me: "Tubing." You should have seen the look on his face. Then I said, no, not really, car accident and he started asking me for details, like when, where, how... some people are just rude and ignorant beyond belief.

I chose to get the push-assist as I need to be doing something as, not doing much has weakened my shoulders even more (it took over four years for me to get my local council to put wheelchair access in so I could get out - I needed a wheelchair ramp and a new entrance door (as well as widening the bathroom door - why do peops build bathroom doors so narrow!???!)

I couldn't afford a new wheelchair as well as a new vehicle so I'm going for the Yamaha push-assist wheels (see my profile for more details) as I will be able to remove the powered wheels and still put them and the frame into my little car. (I've got a Perodua (the make) 'Kenari' (the model) so it's a small vehicle but high and easy to get in/out of). I looked into it and it would have cost me around £30,000-£60,000 for an suitable wheelchair accessible vehicle, plus the cost of a chair. There was no way I can afford that. (It would have to be a side-access vehicle because of the parking arrangements and paths where I live so it costs more than a rear-access vehicle). My new chair (including Spinergy wheels, Frogs Legs castors/castor forks, fold-down push handles, armrests AND the Yamaha JW-II wheels will be about £5,500. Because I've got scoliosis etc, I need a chair which is 'just right' but a lot of 'standard' powerchairs wouldn't suit my needs so a powerchair would cost me upwards of £10,000 really. I'm going for a compromise and the best of what I can get. I'm having a custom-built chair which will fit me and my Roho Quadtro cushion.

Another reason for going for the Yamaha JW-IIs is that, when the time comes, I can buy the Yamaha JWX1 which is the joystick controlled version and they will attach exactly where the JW-IIs do so I won't need to change my frame (unless I want or need to for other reasons) but can then have the best of all: Manual, push-assist and Joystick controlled. (One of the reasons of avoiding a joystick controlled chair for as long as possible is that I don't really have good enough hand control to steer/manoeuvre a joystick controlled chair comfortably.) I know that I will need a joystick controlled powerchair in the future but if I get the JWX1, it will mean that I can still get the chair (frame with wheels detached) into more vehicles than if I go straight for a powerchair now.


Oooh, I feel a virtual 'kick' up the rear of the 'snow tubing park manager'! Why is it that we wheelchair users are seen as public property! I often say to people who put their hands on me that "I'm not a 'PLP'!" Then they ask "What's a 'PLP'?" "I'm not a 'Public Leaning Post'!" "Oh!" is the usual reply! I must admit, I do get quite defensive and vocal these days. When I was attacked in a supermarket around a month before Christmas, I did get really vocal - I squealed because I was hurt by the peops who yanked me out of the way of the stupid woman who was attacking me and accusing me of pushing into her son on purpose - the kid was not looking where he was going and walked into me! The woman had complained that I had my elbows out to push myself! It took two members of staff to pull her off me! Almost worse was that I was accused of causing problems and someone said that I was banned from the store! I demanded to speak with the manager who did a turn around when he heard exactly what happened (and that one of the members of staff had nearly pulled me over backwards and I only just avoided my fingers getting caught and broken in my wheels as well as only just stopping myself from doing a 'tortoise' impression (arms and legs in the air and unable to self-right!) Was really not impressed that my right shoulder was partially dislocated too! I seem to attract weirdoes attacking me! I've had Sooooo many peops complain that I've got my elbows out when pushing! How else do they expect me to push myself!


I know what you mean about the 'touchy-feely' thing - I've even had a stranger come over to me whilst I was sat waiting for a lift and he patted me on the head and went away again!


Speaking of new chairs - am going to get to see the latest 'mock-up' of my new chair tomorrow! I can't wait!




Best wishes,
Cat

>v,,^<

Edited by Bagpuss-wheels, 17 February 2009 - 05:10 PM.

[Rotarymotion]

Two of the things I hate the most are:
1. strangers touching me, or my chair, or even just getting far too close into my personal space, and
2. people asking me "whats wrong with you" or "what have you done".
I usually reply "nothing as far as I know" and refuse to engage in conversation with intrusive strangers. I'm quite happy having a normal conversation with a stranger, and in fact enjoy meeting people, but sometimes you meet someone whose only interest in you is to ask personal and intrusive questions about your physical abilities and history.

I've been patted on the head three times. The first two times I was so shocked, I was speechless and couldn't think of anything to say. The last time, I was queuing in the Post Office and as a man walked out not looking where he was going, he nearly fell over me, then saw me, said sorry and patted me on the head. I was furious and said in a loud voice "I'm not a dog. You don't have to pat me." All the other customers in the post office were also shocked when they realised what he had done.

If anyone can give me better phrases to use when my space is "invaded" by these weird people, I would be very grateful. I fear I will have opportunities in the future to use the appropriate phrases.

Mark

[twisted_ophelia]

Yikes, I've never been patted on the head, just the shoulder, back, arm, hand, etc. I'd probably swat at someone like I'd swat at a fly if they patted my head ;) Yeah, I don't get why people feel that they can invade the personal space of people in chairs. I have literally been told by more than one stranger "ohhh you're so cute, you look like a little doll!". Umm, WTF!? I am not a doll! I get a lot of people asking me why I'm in a chair and depending on how they ask, I am usually good at sort of educating them about SCI--most people know VERY little about spinal cord injuries. If they are invasive or rude, I have little tolerance for it. If people get too close, I wheel backwards and they generally get the hint. If people stare at me, which I really don't like and I'm feeling grumpy, I will loudly say "don't stare" or something along those lines. I've been lucky for the most part in that I've managed to avoid having any horrifying experiences like the one that Bagpuss described in the grocery store. That is terrible! I don't have other phrases to use except the straight up "don't touch me". Like I said, for the most part, I am nice and easy going about it unless it's very rude, ignorant or invasive and makes me feel like a circus freak. I've often wondered if men in chairs get the same type of coddling, patting, pity, sympathy, overly helpfulness, invasions-of-space that I do, being a relatively small blonde girl!

Bagpuss, your new chair sounds cool. I hope it will make life easier for ya! About getting into small spaces, a friend suggested going with as small a chair as possible in width and getting zero camber on the thing and you will be super narrow. Is your camber adjustable on the new chair? Because having as little camber as possible can mean inches taken off how wide your chair is. Getting into narrow doorways will be easier. Though, the downside to that, is some say that zero camber is harder to propel. My new chair, which is currently making it's way to me, has zero camber. Can't wait to be narrower!

[WildKat]

Kaz=1983, on Feb 10 2009, 06:36 AM, said:

OK I've been thinking I might try taking my push handles off and see how I go withot them but I am not sure about how it will effect me when it comes to getting up stairs and so on ... are the any quads on here who dont have push handles and could help us out ?

EDIT; and steep hills...

I'm a c6 comp. and I had fold down push handles on my first chair, but I took them off awhile after getting it and haven't had push handles on my current chair. I find that even with the folding handled folded down people still tried to push me without asking. My backrest is 13" high, so if I need a push people can usually still hold onto the posts on either side of it and push me, but if people try to push me without asking, they don't do it because they can't find any handles!

If you hook your arm around the handles to sit upright you might want to consider the fold down ones or ones that can fold in towards your back. I have enough dump in my seat to stay upright without doing this, and also have an ergonomic seat which helps a lot so I don't do the hooking my arm around the back usually.

If it's just one step my boyfriend gets ahead of me going down and holds the front of my chair level while I push over it and if we are going up he gets in front of me and holds the front and pulls me up over the step. I hope this helps and makes sense as it's almost 1 AM here.

[Rotarymotion]

I've often wondered if men in chairs get the same type of coddling, patting, pity, sympathy, overly helpfulness, invasions-of-space that I do, being a relatively small blonde girl!

Well, I can only give you my experiences as a middle-aged married man. Perhaps I'm unlucky but I've been patted on the head three times in the three years since I became a full-time wheelchair user. The first time it was another man, the second time it was a friends wife. As I said above, I was so stunned on these occasions that I couldn't speak. The third time is the one I described above where a complete stranger (male) patted me on the head after apologising for not seeing me. That is the time I exclaimed that I wasn't a dog and didn't need to be patted.

It sounds as if you get the same sort of pity, sympathy, overly helpfulness (usually is more a nuisence rather than a help) and invasions of space as I do. I have also been pushed forward in a queue by the person behind many times so now I always put my brakes on after each time we move forward. You can see why I won't have handles on any of my chairs now.

Perhaps its physical appearance that makes people think they can get away with invading our space. I look small, thin, and non-threatening. A good friend of mine recently had a stroke and is now in a (large) power chair. He was 6 foot 8 inches tall and very solidly built. I can't imagine anyone trying to pat him on the head. He says if anyone tries, he still has one working arm and they are likely to end up with a broken arm to remind them not to do it again.

Any useful phrases to keep these invading people at bay would be most welcome.

Mark

[twisted_ophelia]

Rotarymotion, on Feb 18 2009, 05:07 AM, said:

Perhaps its physical appearance that makes people think they can get away with invading our space. I look small, thin, and non-threatening. A good friend of mine recently had a stroke and is now in a (large) power chair. He was 6 foot 8 inches tall and very solidly built. I can't imagine anyone trying to pat him on the head. He says if anyone tries, he still has one working arm and they are likely to end up with a broken arm to remind them not to do it again.

Any useful phrases to keep these invading people at bay would be most welcome.

Mark

I think physical appearance, or being smaller in stature, has something to do with it, definitely. The reactions/invasions/coddling I get also depends a lot on who I am with. If I am with another female, I get it a LOT. If I am with a male friend, most of whom are bigger guys covered in tattoos and body piercings then I rarely get any of the bullshit. People will just basically stay out of my way. If I am alone, I get it the worst, mostly in places like clothing stores from other women. Men don't really do it--they usually just jump to help me if I even remotely look like I need it (usually I don't need it) and do things like hasten to open doors, ask if I need help getting over some rough part of the sidewalk, or simply ask me "are you okay?" without me looking like I'm in any kind of trouble, offer to carry me up the stairs (seriously), etc. That being said, if I am somewhere by myself, I get a lot of people acting surprised that I would go out alone, as if I need a babysitter or something. In my experience, men I don't know either ignore me completely by quickly glancing at me and looking away really fast, thinking I don't notice, or try really hard to be gentlemen. It's the women that do the crazy ridiculous outpouring of sympathy and pity, patting, wanting to give me hugs (again, seriously), the usual.

Useful phrases... I can think of one in particular. It starts with Eff and ends with Off ;) Well, in all seriousness, I find that just telling them in a normal neutral tone of voice to not touch me or something along those lines works the best. It's not rude or offensive to them and gets the point across. If THEY are rude and offensive, I find assertiveness works the best. I won't hesitate to tell someone to get the hell away from me if it is needed. As a female and a person in a chair, assertiveness when personal space is being invaded severely is a must.

[Jax]

I use a Quickie GTi. I have had a GPV. No handles on either. I have, however, had a nifty idea that has worked. Straps. I got a ratcheting tiedown strap and cut off the ends about a foot from each hook, folded them over and fused them and sewed them. U can stash them in the back upholstery. Also, the hooks can be removed, and the straps can be looped around the crossbar of the backrest. I have seen that on a chair before. The straps are a bit difficult on the hands of the helper, but padding could be added. Just a thought.

[Jax]

twisted_ophelia, on Feb 18 2009, 06:23 PM, said:

Rotarymotion, on Feb 18 2009, 05:07 AM, said:

Perhaps its physical appearance that makes people think they can get away with invading our space. I look small, thin, and non-threatening. A good friend of mine recently had a stroke and is now in a (large) power chair. He was 6 foot 8 inches tall and very solidly built. I can't imagine anyone trying to pat him on the head. He says if anyone tries, he still has one working arm and they are likely to end up with a broken arm to remind them not to do it again.

Any useful phrases to keep these invading people at bay would be most welcome.

Mark

I think physical appearance, or being smaller in stature, has something to do with it, definitely. The reactions/invasions/coddling I get also depends a lot on who I am with. If I am with another female, I get it a LOT. If I am with a male friend, most of whom are bigger guys covered in tattoos and body piercings then I rarely get any of the bullshit. People will just basically stay out of my way. If I am alone, I get it the worst, mostly in places like clothing stores from other women. Men don't really do it--they usually just jump to help me if I even remotely look like I need it (usually I don't need it) and do things like hasten to open doors, ask if I need help getting over some rough part of the sidewalk, or simply ask me "are you okay?" without me looking like I'm in any kind of trouble, offer to carry me up the stairs (seriously), etc. That being said, if I am somewhere by myself, I get a lot of people acting surprised that I would go out alone, as if I need a babysitter or something. In my experience, men I don't know either ignore me completely by quickly glancing at me and looking away really fast, thinking I don't notice, or try really hard to be gentlemen. It's the women that do the crazy ridiculous outpouring of sympathy and pity, patting, wanting to give me hugs (again, seriously), the usual.

Useful phrases... I can think of one in particular. It starts with Eff and ends with Off ;) Well, in all seriousness, I find that just telling them in a normal neutral tone of voice to not touch me or something along those lines works the best. It's not rude or offensive to them and gets the point across. If THEY are rude and offensive, I find assertiveness works the best. I won't hesitate to tell someone to get the hell away from me if it is needed. As a female and a person in a chair, assertiveness when personal space is being invaded severely is a must.

WOW. I have heard some craziness, but the random women wanting to hug you tops the list. I get the insistent people that want to "help" and will NOT take no for an answer, especially getting into and out the truck. I actually told one person to "get the f*ck away from my chair! It cost more than your car!" It worked...lol

[twisted_ophelia]

Jax, on Feb 25 2009, 12:38 AM, said:

WOW. I have heard some craziness, but the random women wanting to hug you tops the list. I get the insistent people that want to "help" and will NOT take no for an answer, especially getting into and out the truck. I actually told one person to "get the f*ck away from my chair! It cost more than your car!" It worked...lol

It's happened more than once over the years too. It's done in a really overly sympathetic "awwwwwwwwwww" kind of way. Totally ridiculous. I actually got patted again a couple days ago, when I was in Buffalo. I was in one of the malls there, getting a coffee from Dunkin Donuts. I went to put the coffee between my legs (not the safest obviously but my buddy who was with me had his hands full) and some guy was watching me the whole time and says "Ohhh, dear, do you REALLY think that's the best idea?" and puts his hand on my back/shoulder and starts to laugh. I was like... yeah... I'm fine.... really, I'm used to it.... Sheesh. I mean, I get that he's well-meaning but damn.

[Rotarymotion]

twisted_ophelia, on Feb 25 2009, 04:41 PM, said:

I went to put the coffee between my legs (not the safest obviously but my buddy who was with me had his hands full) and some guy was watching me the whole time and says "Ohhh, dear, do you REALLY think that's the best idea?" and puts his hand on my back/shoulder and starts to laugh.

I don't buy the "well-meaning" particularly if he then laughed at you. Touching someone from behind unexpectedly when they clearly have a hot drink between their legs is just very risky, very rude, and probably dangerous. I'm sure he wouldn't have dared touch and laugh at a lady who wasn't in a wheelchair. If he did, she might accuse him of assault.

Why do people think its acceptible, and even funny to touch / pat / push us just because we're sitting a wheelchair?

I need a repellant !

[twisted_ophelia]

Rotarymotion, on Feb 25 2009, 02:57 PM, said:

I don't buy the "well-meaning" particularly if he then laughed at you. Touching someone from behind unexpectedly when they clearly have a hot drink between their legs is just very risky, very rude, and probably dangerous. I'm sure he wouldn't have dared touch and laugh at a lady who wasn't in a wheelchair. If he did, she might accuse him of assault.

Why do people think its acceptible, and even funny to touch / pat / push us just because we're sitting a wheelchair?

I need a repellant !

Well, he didn't laugh at me in a mean way or anything. But, yeah, I agree that it is bullshit to be touching anyone without their permission and if I wasn't in a chair, he most likely wouldn't have patted me. I think I need to carry around some pepper spray

[Santa Cruz Soul Surfer (LRO)]

twisted_ophelia, on Feb 25 2009, 06:02 PM, said:

Rotarymotion, on Feb 25 2009, 02:57 PM, said:

I don't buy the "well-meaning" particularly if he then laughed at you. Touching someone from behind unexpectedly when they clearly have a hot drink between their legs is just very risky, very rude, and probably dangerous. I'm sure he wouldn't have dared touch and laugh at a lady who wasn't in a wheelchair. If he did, she might accuse him of assault.

Why do people think its acceptible, and even funny to touch / pat / push us just because we're sitting a wheelchair?

I need a repellant !

Well, he didn't laugh at me in a mean way or anything. But, yeah, I agree that it is bullshit to be touching anyone without their permission and if I wasn't in a chair, he most likely wouldn't have patted me. I think I need to carry around some pepper spray

LOL, wow...You girls really do get harassed more! Although that being said, I have been pat on the head more times than i'd like to admit. I guess we're just at "that level", where people subconsciously think it's acceptable to pat us on the head... In response, i've gotten quite good at swinging my wheels around and rolling over their foot "on accident" ;)...A footplate to the back of their ankle works REALLY well too!

[twisted_ophelia]

Man, I can't believe you guys have been patted on the HEAD! WTF is wrong with some people?? I've always thought strangers patting my shoulder or whatever is bad enough. A footplate to someone's ankle.... that would teach them a lesson!!!! I've ran over people's feet many a time--most of the time genuinely by accident and it's mostly been friend's feet--but there are some people out there who would really deserve that footplate to the ankle thing.