[DavidLevin]

I am posting this thread to ask for you assistance regarding the use/need of a very unique stair climbing wheelchair. We want to ask for your advice before we venture on developing a wheelchair which we very much hope would change your lives.

My company developed a technology that can interchange between a wheel and a track (see video here: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=naccztNpDZU While there are many applications for this technology, the most important one, and the one this company was founded on is to provide total freedom to you by building a wheelchair that can climb stairs and curves (facing the direction of travel at all times), travel indoors (64 Cm width-25”) as well as outdoors on all surfaces (mud, grass, snow, gravel), provide support for upright, stand up and sit down positions and also be able to lower you to pick things up from the floor (in the above video, fast forward to 5:30 to see the illustrations). In addition, since the seat can be lowered, you can also enter and exit a car with almost no modifications to the vehicle. The chair will be similar size to a class B powered wheelchair weighing around 220-260lbs with speed of 5-7mph.

Images below:



The chair you see above was never made a product only an initial prototype to test the technology was made. We are now considering if we should build a fully working prototype. We’ve been getting mixed feedback from the big manufacturers, so we wanted to come to you and ask, is this something you will find helpful? We were told that people would be scared of climbing and going down staircases. Is this true? Assume this would cost the same as any other premium chair ($13 to $15K), how important are these benefits to you?

This post has been edited by DavidLevin: 10 March 2009 - 01:49 PM

[Yasko]

DavidLevin, on Mar 9 2009, 10:12 AM, said:

I am posting this thread to ask for you assistance regarding the use/need of a very unique stair climbing wheelchair. We want to ask for your advice before we venture on developing a wheelchair which we very much hope would change your lives.

My company developed a technology that can interchange between a wheel and a track (see video here: http://www.youtube.c...?v=naccztNpDZU). While there are many applications for this technology, the most important one, and the one this company was founded on is to provide total freedom to you by building a wheelchair that can climb stairs and curves (facing the direction of travel at all times), travel indoors (64 Cm width-25”) as well as outdoors on all surfaces (mud, grass, snow, gravel), provide support for upright, stand up and sit down positions and also be able to lower you to pick things up from the floor (in the above video, fast forward to 5:30 to see the illustrations). In addition, since the seat can be lowered, you can also enter and exit a car with almost no modifications to the vehicle. The chair will be similar size to a class B powered wheelchair weighing around 220-260lbs with speed of 5-7mph.

The chair you see above was never made a product only an initial prototype to test the technology was made. We are now considering if we should build a fully working prototype. We’ve been getting mixed feedback from the big manufacturers, so we wanted to come to you and ask, is this something you will find helpful? We were told that people would be scared of climbing and going down staircases. Is this true? Assume this would cost the same as any other premium chair ($13 to $15K), how important are these benefits to you?

WOW, I am very impressed! Good job and I hope you will be able to build wheelchair for all purposes! We definitely need one that can climb up the stars and also one that can go trough the snow and mud. (At least I will need one). Good luck David and keep us updated.

[greybeard]

DavidLevin, on Mar 9 2009, 06:12 PM, said:

I am posting this thread to ask for you assistance regarding the use/need of a very unique stair climbing wheelchair. We want to ask for your advice before we venture on developing a wheelchair which we very much hope would change your lives.

My company developed a technology that can interchange between a wheel and a track (see video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naccztNpDZU). While there are many applications for this technology, the most important one, and the one this company was founded on is to provide total freedom to you by building a wheelchair that can climb stairs and curves (facing the direction of travel at all times), travel indoors (64 Cm width-25") as well as outdoors on all surfaces (mud, grass, snow, gravel), provide support for upright, stand up and sit down positions and also be able to lower you to pick things up from the floor (in the above video, fast forward to 5:30 to see the illustrations). In addition, since the seat can be lowered, you can also enter and exit a car with almost no modifications to the vehicle. The chair will be similar size to a class B powered wheelchair weighing around 220-260lbs with speed of 5-7mph.

The chair you see above was never made a product only an initial prototype to test the technology was made. We are now considering if we should build a fully working prototype. We've been getting mixed feedback from the big manufacturers, so we wanted to come to you and ask, is this something you will find helpful? We were told that people would be scared of climbing and going down staircases. Is this true? Assume this would cost the same as any other premium chair ($13 to $15K), how important are these benefits to you?

The link returns this error message from Youtube: The URL contained a malformed video ID.

[wheelywendy]

greybeard, on Mar 9 2009, 09:40 PM, said:

DavidLevin, on Mar 9 2009, 06:12 PM, said:

I am posting this thread to ask for you assistance regarding the use/need of a very unique stair climbing wheelchair. We want to ask for your advice before we venture on developing a wheelchair which we very much hope would change your lives.

My company developed a technology that can interchange between a wheel and a track (see video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naccztNpDZU). While there are many applications for this technology, the most important one, and the one this company was founded on is to provide total freedom to you by building a wheelchair that can climb stairs and curves (facing the direction of travel at all times), travel indoors (64 Cm width-25") as well as outdoors on all surfaces (mud, grass, snow, gravel), provide support for upright, stand up and sit down positions and also be able to lower you to pick things up from the floor (in the above video, fast forward to 5:30 to see the illustrations). In addition, since the seat can be lowered, you can also enter and exit a car with almost no modifications to the vehicle. The chair will be similar size to a class B powered wheelchair weighing around 220-260lbs with speed of 5-7mph.

The chair you see above was never made a product only an initial prototype to test the technology was made. We are now considering if we should build a fully working prototype. We've been getting mixed feedback from the big manufacturers, so we wanted to come to you and ask, is this something you will find helpful? We were told that people would be scared of climbing and going down staircases. Is this true? Assume this would cost the same as any other premium chair ($13 to $15K), how important are these benefits to you?

The link returns this error message from Youtube: The URL contained a malformed video ID.

yes i tried the link but keep getting the same message too. think i found site but putting in stair climbing wheelchair, http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Kt-1tZwUZL8 looks impressive.
also found this one, http://www.thechallenger4x4.com/#

This post has been edited by wheelywendy: 09 March 2009 - 11:45 PM

[greybeard]

wheelywendy, on Mar 9 2009, 11:24 PM, said:

also found this one, http://www.thechallenger4x4.com/#

Retailing at £9,995.00. Looks fun but a bit too expensive for most people, I suspect.

[DavidLevin]

Thank you for your comments, and apologies for bad link - I've modified the original post with the correct link, or you can try this one: http://www.galileomobility.com/?p=369

This post has been edited by DavidLevin: 10 March 2009 - 01:50 PM

[wheelywendy]

greybeard, on Mar 10 2009, 07:04 AM, said:

wheelywendy, on Mar 9 2009, 11:24 PM, said:

also found this one, http://www.thechallenger4x4.com/#

Retailing at £9,995.00. Looks fun but a bit too expensive for most people, I suspect.

yes i agree entirly greybeard. so far all the chairs that will do what i want from a chair are way out of my price range, and problem is you rarely see them come up 2nd hand either.
its such a shame everything comes down to money, theres so much out there that could make life so much easier and so much more accessable but those that need it can rarely afford it.
a chap in our village has just got a flash new stand up go anywhere wheelchair, yet most of the time he walks with just a walking stick and rarely adventures off tarmac paths, i'd love one so i could walk my dogs and enjoy it without constantly worrying that i'm going to get stuck (usually happens in one of the many mobile dead zones in our area so i have to sit and wait til i see a farmer in the distance or a horse rider or dog walker, then send my dog to fetch help, roll on summer where at least if i do get stuck theres usually more people around!! !!)

This post has been edited by wheelywendy: 10 March 2009 - 04:06 PM

[wheelywendy]

DavidLevin, on Mar 10 2009, 09:44 AM, said:

Thank you for your comments, and apologies for bad link - I've modified the original post with the correct link, or you can try this one: http://www.galileomobility.com/?p=369

appoligies the item i posted that i found wasnt the one you posted about, but guess prob still of intrest to everyone. your prototype is far more advanced, very interesting clip, looks a really interesting chair that could make a lot of difference to peoples lives, i'd sure love one but guess if its ever on the market it will be way out of my price range. but good luck with it and hope you get to manufactoring stage with it, sure looks like a lot of work and thought has gone into the design and functions

[edlee]

That is an amazing piece of work,,,,

My only question would be on the expandable track system,,,,, it doesn't look to me as tho it would be easily cleaned,, and because of that it's durability would be reduced.

Having worked with tracked machines in my previous life (before chair),, I found that even standard tracks,,that is to say, tracks that didn't expand and contract,, could get clogged and damaged by those clogs.

Have you found a way around that???

Perhaps I'm missing something,,, do the tracks expand or does it change it's course when the idlers are extended???? Tho I know that the design is proprietary,, I'm still curious.
ed

[DavidLevin]

Thank you all for your encouraging comments. Let me get to your questions:

Cleaning tracks - The tracks actually never stretch, they only fold and unfold. The mechanism that is responsible for this fold/unfold reaction also pushes out dirt and debris that gets stuck. Whatever other dirt is there can just be hosed down - there are no exposed electronics.

Price- Our price target is to be competitive with other "premium" chairs at the $13-$15K range. Not sure how we can bring that down at this point.

I have some more questions for you. The manufacturers we've been talking to (they are the ones who will bring this to market at the end of the day), were less enthused by the stair climbing capability, saying that most people would fear going up and down stairs. We on the other hand think that the freedom to go anywhere you want would be more important. Can you give us your thoughts on this?

At the end of the day, what we need to know, these features that we are hoping to provide, how critical are they for you?

Very much appreciate your comments on this.

[edlee]

Dave,,,, were I to choose to invest that much in a chair such as yours,, I would expect it to do what you envisioned. The problem that the manufacturer may have picked up on, was the apparant delay in leveling the seat as you start up or down.

Such an imbalance might unseat a user,, in a very dangerous position,,,,,, which means litigation,,,,, something all manufacturers fear.

Obviously, this problem could be overcome,,, but at what cost??? Speed,,, moving more slowly might do it,,,, speeding up the response of the gearing on the seat,, though that might make it too abrupt,,,

There are other chairs that offer seating that tilts to adjust to terrain,,, usually they don't use gearing but linear actuaters,,, I don't know which would work better on your machine.

I think that my term,, expanding,, and yours,, folding,,, are reasonably synonymous. I'm afraid I would still be concerned with track durability,,,,moving parts, subject to the environment, tend to wear rapidly.

A machine with the capabilities of your's, would seem to be rather heavy and power hungry,,, any idea of estimated range and weight?

It is, overall, a brilliant idea,,,,, I hope it does well in the marketplace.
ed

[Jax]

I would use the stair climb function for sure. The standing function is also apparently more stable than most I have seen. However, the true issue that will come to be the biggest is the price and getting this through insurance/rehab services, as even manual chairs are difficult to get through these agencies. This means that the user will likely have to pay for the chair outright, unless the proper codes can be applied for the chair in order to make it more "justifiable" to insurance/rehab services. I do see edlee's concern about the wear issue possibility. I have worked with several different tracked machines, and have seen quite a few of the tracks come off the rollers. I like tracks for the lowered ground pressure aspect, and the ease of climbing, but the maintenance is generally high for tracks. I don't mind high maintenance (I wouldn't be married if I did), but I'm a bit paranoid of tracks. I just don't want to be using the chair on stairs and have a track jump the roller. If you can help ease my fears about the tracks, I can say that I would do everything possible to get one of these if/when they are released.

[Bob C]

Although stair climbing wheelchairs would be of some use, past experience iindicates that they are cost prohibitive. They are typically not covered by insurance because they are considered a "quality of life" issue rather than a medical necessity. There are too few disabled persons who can pay for them out-of-pocket to make it an econmi6ally viable product. That conclusion is supported by the recent failure of the ibot wheelchair and an earlier model developed by Quest technology. The later chair used track mobility and was functionally superior to the ibot. I had a chance to try one at a rehab technology conference. It was great until you confronted stairs with snow or ice. I have posted an overview of that system for your reference.

I will be glad to respond to specific questions.

Re: Quest (early 1990s)

"A Sunnyvale, Calif., company has developed a wheelchair that can climb stairs and curbs and negotiate rough terrain with ease. Produced by the Quest Technologies Corporation, the chair, called the Access Mobility System, resembles a small tank, with treads in place of wheels. Quest based its design on technology conceived by Jeff Pagget, a disabled engineer in Leeton, New South Wales, Australia.

Quest said Access could climb stairs with an incline of up to 36 degrees, and curbs up to 9 inches high. An automatic center-of-gravity control tilts the seat to keep the rider level, and a sonar-based inclinometer prevents a rider from attempting too steep an incline. Normally controlled with a joy stick similar to those used on video games, Access can also be modified to allow breath-activated and other control mechanisms."

[sydala]

To David Levin - I care for a C-5 quad and I love the idea of a chair that would allow him to climb stairs. For instance, he is going to Germany in May and trying to figure out a way to tour a museum that doesn't have a wheelchair ramp - this would be such a great ap for a trip like that.

I am going to list for you the things I did not see you address that I know he would need and want in a chair:

Turning radius comparable to indoor powered chairs - really important because although his home is set up for a wider turning radius, many other places (including his office) are not. Same goes for the chair width - it would need to be comparable to that of an indoor powered chair for the same reason.

Tilt feature. Like many others, he HAS to have a tilt feature on his chair so that he can tilt several times a day to prevent decubitas.

Battery life. Is the battery life on this comparable to that of other indoor powered chairs, or would you use a larger battery, or?...

I really like the fact that the seat lifts because it would make some of his transfers easier to conduct. Some chairs tilt both in their normal position, and they can lift and then tilt. That's a nice feature as well.

I gather the wheels would be different than your average indoor chair. Would they be ok on carpeting? Would they tend to cause more carpet wear?

There is an IR module that can be attached to some chairs that allows the use of the phone, tv remote, computer mouse - all from the chair. Would your chair be compatible with this IR module?

That's about all I can think of off-hand. Oh - one more thing. Where would this be developed? The gentleman for whom I care lives in the U.S.

Also, whether or not you could make them cost effective enough that major insurers would pay for them is really important. If you can't get insurers to cover, your market is drastically reduced.

Thanks for both the info and the chance to offer input.

[sydala]

DavidLevin, on Mar 11 2009, 02:34 AM, said:

Thank you all for your encouraging comments. Let me get to your questions:

Price- Our price target is to be competitive with other "premium" chairs at the $13-$15K range. Not sure how we can bring that down at this point.

I see the price issue as being more whether or not insurance will cover the chair - it doesn't matter so much what it costs if insurance will cover...

I have some more questions for you. The manufacturers we've been talking to (they are the ones who will bring this to market at the end of the day), were less enthused by the stair climbing capability, saying that most people would fear going up and down stairs. We on the other hand think that the freedom to go anywhere you want would be more important. Can you give us your thoughts on this?

I would think you could eradicate this by creating more of an optional harness belt to go with the seatbelt for times the chair is in use in the more "extreme" aps.

At the end of the day, what we need to know, these features that we are hoping to provide, how critical are they for you?

For the gentleman for whom I care, the only critical thing is that he has a chair that works reliably well on a consistent basis, maintains battery life, is the correct size and turning radius, and provides the tilt feature. Some people may not tilt as much as he does but for him, tilting regularly is critical to the prevention of decubitas. The other features on your chair would improve vastly his QUALITY of life. Which of course, I see as critical, but an insurance company might think otherwise.

[sydala]

One more thing I wanted to add - there is an X8 extreme already on the market that climbs curbs, drives on sand, snow and hills, and has both seat lift and tilt:

http://www.mobility-...com/extreme.asp

I believe it utilizes, or can utilize, a type of butterfly harness that seems to me as though it would work well in the chair ap that you are suggesting.

This post has been edited by sydala: 14 March 2009 - 05:41 PM

[DavidLevin]

Again, thank you all for your thoughts and comments. WheelyWendy - the issue you described is what motivates us to do what we do.

Please allow me to get to your questions concerns one by one, and add additional information where possible.

Quick three points:
1. In wheel form the chair is comparable to any other standard power chair. This includes weight, size, turning radius and battery life
2. In track form the chair is as good if not better than any outdoor or stair climbing chair
3. The variable sitting position (sit, stand up, lay down, lower to ground) combines features available in several separate chairs:


Where we believe this is radical that we can provide all of these in 1 chair at a price comparable to a standard premium power chair - thus providing freedom. The other examples given here would solve only 1 problem.

Now, to your questions:
Tracks function, reliability, cleaning: The track is tried and tested at a strength of over 600% of the requirements. As an added safety precaution, in case the tracks rips the chair will stay on the stairs, albeit stuck. Keep in mind that this technology is implemented in military robotics and is therefore tried and tested in severe conditions, check out this pic:
Here's a sample video: http://www.galileomobility.com/?p=362 (please ignore military antics of our partner company)

Weight/Size: As mentioned above, an estimated 220 - 260lb with similar dimensions to standard chairs. Will have identical maneuverability indoors as any other chair

Battery Life: Same as standard wheelchair for as long as you use the wheel. Converting to tracks, going out doors, climbing stairs will take more battery power. The battery life will depend on the use of the chair

Wheels indoors : In wheel form the chair will travel indoor as any other wheeled chair. As such, turning radius is 0

Development location: Lots to figure out before we venture into that one

From what I am hearing here though is that for the right price and reliability, yes there is a need. And, that unlike what we were told by the lard manufacturer fear is a smaller factor as compared to the potential freedom. If I understood correctly, this is encouraging.

The business side of the equation is a very difficult one. Insurance companies, liability, and the overall issue that those using are not the ones paying. As a private company we need to show our investors the business potential before they put in lots of cash to making this a product. Questions such as what would insurance companies cover and what liability would manufacturers be willing to bare are not ones we can answer at this point. The first step of course is to determine need.

Very much appreciate the comments so far. Would love to hear more of your thoughts on this

-Dave

[edlee]

Dave,,, I think I like it better with those wide tracks,,,, wouldn't be as good around the house,,, but,, what a machine for squirrel hunting.

I think that if you came up with the long enough warrantees,,, or even after market warrantees that one could purchase,,, the concern over durability would be answered.

We,, those in chairs,, are always looking for better mobility,,, which , to us, translates as freedom,,,, so provide that and you have people who want it,,,, The problem you have will be to convince insurance companies,,, who are really the ones who pay for most chairs,, that your machine FILLS A NEED,, at least as well as existing machines, and does it for a comparable price.... If you make it cheaper, they will knock down your doors to get it.

Keep rollin' dude.
ed

[sydala]

Curious about the difficulty level of changing out the wheels for the tracks. I mean, optimally, you'd have a chair you could go to the office in, then out to lunch somewhere where there were stairs. If you have to change to the track just to climb stairs, then what happens when you enter the facility? Would the tracks then be able to run well on carpet and hardwood and tile without damaging it?

[edlee]

Syd,, if you check out some of the links in the earlier posts you get an idea of what Dave is talking about and get most of your questions answered.

The new thing about these tracks, is that they change shape to fit the need,,, long, like a tank, for going up or down stairs, and round for maneuvering (sp).

The real pictures of their machine isn't very much like their animations, but it gives a good idea of what the finished machine might be able to do.
ed

[Jax]

I'm with ed. I like the wider tracks as well. Will the tracks on the chair be that wide?

[DavidLevin]

Jax, on Mar 19 2009, 03:20 AM, said:

I'm with ed. I like the wider tracks as well. Will the tracks on the chair be that wide?

Edlee, you are indeed correct, the built machine looks different from the illustrations since it is a prototype designed to prove that the technology can do what we say it can and of course for the right price. The final product though will look very much like the illustrations. As you can imagine, at our current stage we are trying to figure out if the investment required to making this a product is well, worth it. That's why we come to you to see if you need it.

Regarding the tracks, some background on our company. The prototype wheelchair you saw images of was actually developed before the military robot. We spent the last 3 years perfecting that technology and we are now ready (From a technology perspective) to build a reliable dependable chair very much as seen in the illustration. The track width will be such that the chair would be used indoors like any other chair (must be narrow enough) and outside on any surface (tracks must be wide, strong and reliable enough).

Again, thank you all for your thoughts and commets.

[KarenFerguson]

The first thing that jumped out at me was that it resembled the Ibot, just in terms of its main features.

I'm not sure if the chair will have wide spread appeal. I'm sure there's a niche market for it: the off roading and rough terrain capabilities for example will appeal to the more adventurous chair users. Most chair users will not want this full time - that's just my humble opinion. The fact that the chair can stand, elevate and climb stairs is remarkable, just keep in mind some of the short-comings users of the Ibot discovered: they could not drive from their chair and even at it's lowest setting it was difficult to get their knees under tables.

Just something to keep in mind as you progress from a prototype to the next stage.

[DavidLevin]

KarenFerguson, on Mar 25 2009, 04:50 AM, said:

The first thing that jumped out at me was that it resembled the Ibot, just in terms of its main features.

I'm not sure if the chair will have wide spread appeal. I'm sure there's a niche market for it: the off roading and rough terrain capabilities for example will appeal to the more adventurous chair users. Most chair users will not want this full time - that's just my humble opinion. The fact that the chair can stand, elevate and climb stairs is remarkable, just keep in mind some of the short-comings users of the Ibot discovered: they could not drive from their chair and even at it's lowest setting it was difficult to get their knees under tables.

Just something to keep in mind as you progress from a prototype to the next stage.

Thanks Karen