31 replies to this topic

[cubanito_016]

Hey whats up let me ask a question does enybody know how to get me a cheap titanium wheelchair or one for free?.I got a aluminium wheelchair tilite aero z this wheelchair is a piece if shit I got it when I got injured.I live here in florida does enyone knows if they donate wheelchair so I could get one.

[Unbreakable]

Quote

Hey whats up let me ask a question does enybody know how to get me a cheap titanium wheelchair or one for free?.I got a aluminium wheelchair tilite aero z this wheelchair is a piece if shit I got it when I got injured.I live here in florida does enyone knows if they donate wheelchair so I could get one.

The question I have for you is this: Why do you say that your Aero Z is a "piece of shit" ? It's actually a pretty nice chair, and the EXACT same chair as the TiLite ZRA, except made from aluminum instead of titanium.

It seems like there is this big fascination with titanium, when in reality it drives up the price of the chair and is HEAVIER than aluminum.

If you want something LIGHTER, check out one of the new MAGNESIUM chairs.
http://www.lasherspo...m/products.html

Here is what Christian Bagg over at www.cripcollege.com has to say about it all:

"About fourteen years ago, I started an apprenticeship as a machinist. I had a virgin mind when it came to how things were made, what they were made of and why they were made of it. To me mountain bikes were magic—pieces of art sculpted out of T6-6061 aircraft quality aluminum, 6AL-4V titanium and chrome-moly steel. It was the pinnacle of what the engineering world had to offer, at least that’s what I thought. As time went by I started to learn (through this crazy thing called science) that what I was being fed by my beloved bike companies were not relevant facts, but a mish mash of marketing bullshit. So, for your benefit, I’m going to run through some simple misconceptions so that the next time a dealer feeds you a line about some super-wiz-bag- triple-throw-down caster fork made out of CNC machined T6 6061 aluminum you can take it for what its worth.

Let’s do a little run through starting with chrome-moly. Chrome-moly is steel with a little chromium and molybdenum added for strength. It is no lighter than your run of the mill steel. It’s just a bit stronger, which allows them to use less of it resulting in a lighter product. Fact… chrome-moly and steel weigh the same because they are the same. Next up is aluminum, or as you Brits like to say aluminium. Aluminum like steel and titanium comes in various alloys. The alloys are things that can make the material stronger, more flexible, more resistant to corrosion, etc. Imagine you are cooking a bunch of brownies for a bake sale, some with nuts, some with icing, and some low fat. Now they are all still brownies they just have a few different ingredients or alloys. The funny thing with aluminum is that it would be harder to find a bar or tube of 100% pure aluminum compared to finding an alloy. So, the mystic T6 aluminum is in fact the easiest and one of the cheapest aluminums to acquire.

Now to the wonder metal that is titanium—where do I start? First off, let’s dissect the most popular myth, that titanium is lighter and stronger than steel and aluminum. Titanium is about half the weight of steel; however, its tensile strength (what it takes to rip it apart) is about 20%less than chrome-moly. Compared to say a T6 aluminum, titanium is about 30% heavier but has twice the tensile strength. To me the funny thing about the marketing that goes into titanium wheelchairs is the claim that they are lighter and absorb road vibrations “shock”. In reality, they are no lighter than their aluminum cousins. They could be, if the tubes were “butted” like in a bike (this is where the wall thickness of the tube gets thinner where there is no weld or bend to save weight). However the titanium wheelchair manufactures use “straight gauge tubing,” which really negates the benefits of using this high dollar material. As for road vibrations, please, at three miles an hour the frequency of the vibration is so low that your chair would need to be made out of rubber to see any effect. I guess that’s what tires are for. What I am trying to get at is that any material is only as good as the design behind it. The best analogy that I can think of is to imagine the air force unveiling the latest in fighter plane technology and it is just a crappy old bi plane, but it’s made of titanium and carbon fiber. For me that’s where the wheelchair is, same old design but made out of fancier material."

[FROG]

I wonder what changes Christian Bagg would propose to make his wheelchair better? I ride on a tilite and it is absolutely the best ride I have ever had.

Edited by FROG, 10 April 2009 - 06:24 AM.

[ems]

Totally agree!!! The only reason I chose titanium on this crossfire, was I didnt want a painted frame, I like the all metal look ;) So was for cosmetic purposes only !! LOL


.. What don't you like about your chair? Is it just the flexible cantilever frame? Some ppl just dont get on with them, I realise that.. you didnt actually state what it was about the chari you dont like

Edited by ems, 10 April 2009 - 10:21 AM.

[Texaswheelz]

FROG, on Apr 10 2009, 01:23 AM, said:

I wonder what changes Christian Bagg would propose to make his wheelchair better? I ride on a tilite and it is absolutely the best ride I have ever had.

He was actually working on creating his own char a couple years ago, the project got put on hold/canceled or something though.

While some of what he says is true, probably all of it. There is something to be said for the 15 lb chairs that every one is in today compared to the 30 lb chairs every one was in 10-15 years ago. I don't care what material it's made of, something had to change, whether it be the material or the design, I like it. My Ti Lite is head and shoulders above past shares I've had in ride and comfort.

To the OP, I also would like ot know what is shit about the Aero Z, is it uncomfortable? Not the right fit for you? If that's the case then the material is is made out of would not change things, getting the right fit would though.

It is pretty much identical to the Titanium ZRA that I have the difference in weight would probably not be noticeable if you held one in your right hand and the other in your left.

[KarenFerguson]

Sometimes on Ebay you can find a good deal on a chair. It wouldn't hurt to look. And I personally like my titanium chair better than my old aluminum chair. It's all a matter of personal taste and what you feel comfortable riding in.

[Unbreakable]

Quote

To the OP, I also would like ot know what is shit about the Aero Z, is it uncomfortable? Not the right fit for you? If that's the case then the material is is made out of would not change things, getting the right fit would though.

This is a great point.

You know the car from the movie "Back to the Future"? The DeLorean? Well, the entire body on those cars are made from stainless steel. Cool-looking car, but if you don't find the seats comfortable, who cares what the metal is made from. You'd be better off in a Toyota.

Same thing with your wheelchair, Texaswheelz is saying that just changing the metal isn't going to make the chair more comfortable. And as Christian Bagg pointed out in HIS article, the oh so mystical titanium is HEAVIER than aluminum, so think long and hard about your plan to swap chairs. Sounds like you've got a nice one already, it just may need some adjusting.

[cubanito_016]

This is My wheelchair its the aero z aluminium I whant a smaller chair with a smaller back

[twisted_ophelia]

I think I am going to ask this guy here to build me a chair within the next year:

http://www.back2sports.net

His name is Tom Hernon, he is a para, and he is a really awesome guy. Very friendly and his chairs are VERY affordable.

[Unbreakable]

To each his own, but my advice to you is to go to a seating clinic at a spinal rehab hospital and get fitted out proper for a new chair if that's what you want. If you just order some secondhand trash off the net, who knows what you'll end up with, and you might get burned. Why take a chance with something that is such a big part of your life, when you are ALREADY unhappy with the chair you have now?

And that lower backrest you are dreaming of isn't all it's cracked up to be. Read on:

http://www.apparelyz...showtopic=10930

[Bob C]

cubanito_016, on Apr 10 2009, 11:58 AM, said:

This is My wheelchair its the aero z aluminium I whant a smaller chair with a smaller back

It seems like the things yosu want have nothing to do with titanium vs aluminum. They are fitting issues. It appears that you have a seat back that is an add-on. It can probably be replaced with a lower one. You have to be cautious because if you get one too low, you could end up with a spinal curvature0. What do you mean by "smaller size?" Lower, not as wide?

[ems]

Not sure how long you've been in a chair, and how confident you are in it, but if that was my chair, and I wanted to give it a new feel, I would bring the back axle forward a smidge.. like 1/2 inch at a time!! really...only a smidge at a time though!! I have mine set at 3.5 inches forward from the backrest. It will bring your centre of gravity forward, make it feel lighter on the turns, easier to flip the front of the chair up going over rough surfaces, and to get up curbs... just feel a bit sportier to use.. if you bring it toooo far farwards, your going to tip out backwards every time you lean your shoulders back ;O)

That backrest could be replaced, or if you still have the canvas one that the chair came with you could fiddle with that till you get the height you want.. being VERY VERY careful if you have changed the COG.. centre of gravity though!!!

I'd only change one thing at a time .. and slowly ;) Give yourself time to trial it.. alter if you dont like it.

Edited by ems, 10 April 2009 - 05:58 PM.

[cubanito_016]

I whant a chair that wase less cause this one is a little heavy when putting into the car.I what the backrest atleast 12-14 inch my chair is 16 inch wide I whant it 15 inch wide.The problem when they made my chair I didnt know nothing about wheelchair and I was in rehab but after being paralyzed for 1 year already I see how could have one better than that.But now medicaid doesnt wanna pay me eny more chair cause they paid me this one.Medicaid told me for me top get a new chair I have to wait five year.Like if I am gona be paralyzed I wanna have a good wheelchair that I could feel good in it.THis chair youst feels what its not my type I need a better one something I could feel good in it cause if we are gona be paralyzed whe people need to have a good wheelchair we feel good in it.

[ems]

k.. weight wise.. with that backrest etc.. your not going to eally get much lighter! Not any thing noticible..

If all you want to do is tart it up so to speak.. I'd change the wheels, I'd put a smaller ( less wieght) backrest on and move the centre of gravity forward.. .... play with it!!!!

[Hapahowlee]

I'm really surprised that Medicaid didn't require you to get an evaluation with PTs to help figure out what would be the best fit for you.

My husband got a new wheelchair in 2007. Medicare paid for 80% and Voc. Rehab paid the 20%. It had been a long time since my husband bought a new wheelchair and when he called a local mobility company, they told him Medicare/Medicaid requires that he gets and evaluation through the "wheelchair clinic." This involved several meetings with a P.T. to assess his needs. However, this doesn't always work out b/c my husband was prescribed a Ti-Lite TA and he hated it. It was actually too light weight and he went back to what he was comfortable with a Quickie GP.

Maybe you can talk to someone within Medicaid and let them know you were never told to get a proper evaluation. In my husband's case the vendor just swapped chairs even though it had been used for 3 months. It is true though that you can only get a new wheelchair every 5 years when going through Medicare/Medicaid.

Good luck.

[araitn]

FROG, on Apr 10 2009, 02:23 AM, said:

I wonder what changes Christian Bagg would propose to make his wheelchair better? I ride on a tilite and it is absolutely the best ride I have ever had.

Texaswheelz, on Apr 10 2009, 09:07 AM, said:

He was actually working on creating his own char a couple years ago, the project got put on hold/canceled or something though.

Christian Bagg and Jeff Adams have created their own wheelchair...... the Marvel. I ordered one about a week and a half ago and received it yesterday. So far, I'm really happy with it. I'll post some pictures and give my thoughts as soon as I can in my original thread.

[KarenFerguson]

Thanks for the pic's of the chair, it really helps to see what you're working with. I would definitely bring the axles forward so that they are more under your center of gravity. This will help with pushing and will make the chair easier to tip back (make sure you have anti-tips on if you're not comfortable with stopping yourself).

With the back, it looks like you have a Jay back or something similar. You can easily change that out for a sling back - any height you want & it will cut down on the weight of the chair too.

Also, maybe you could get some Spinergy wheels.

Oh, hubby brought up an interesting point. How much grip or hand function do you have? We noticed you have "regular" aluminum push rims. That might be a problem pushing for traction. You might look into getting either plastic or foam coated pushrims.

[Unbreakable]

araitn, on Apr 10 2009, 09:08 PM, said:

FROG, on Apr 10 2009, 02:23 AM, said:

I wonder what changes Christian Bagg would propose to make his wheelchair better? I ride on a tilite and it is absolutely the best ride I have ever had.

Texaswheelz, on Apr 10 2009, 09:07 AM, said:

He was actually working on creating his own char a couple years ago, the project got put on hold/canceled or something though.

Christian Bagg and Jeff Adams have created their own wheelchair...... the Marvel. I ordered one about a week and a half ago and received it yesterday. So far, I'm really happy with it. I'll post some pictures and give my thoughts as soon as I can in my original thread.

Thanks for the link to the Marvel website. They are truly taking wheelchair design to the next step.

By the way, here is further info on the aluminum/titanium debate from that website. After reading this, if a person still thinks titanium is the better wheelchair material....there's no hope for that individual. But then, logic just doesn't work on some.

Mythbusting

"Titanium is magic (false. although it is admittedly pretty.)
Titanium really is a wonderful metal, and although it is extremely difficult to work with, it is strong and light. It’s best used in applications where it can be triangulated (like in a bike) or otherwise reinforced with cross-bracing. The reason that things that are made out of titanium can be made so light is because of a process called “butting” the tube shapes – when the tubes are manufactured (usually by extruding them), the walls of the tubes are not made to a uniform thickness. The tubes are made to be thicker on the ends (where the welds will be), and thinner in the middle where the diameter of the tube provides the structural integrity and strength because of the unique properties of titanium.

The reason that the bike companies can do this is because they know exactly what length of tube they’re going to be using in every size of bike that they build. Bikes come in a range of sizes, with built in adjustability within a range (like a certain wheelchair that we’re particularly proud of!), and so the manufacturers can predict the lengths and the amount of tubing that they’ll be using.

Butting the tubing decreases the weight of the tube by up to 70% while keeping 90% of the strength it would have if it were only one thickness throughout. The ability to butt the tubing is really the only reason that titanium has any real advantage over aluminum or steel.

The custom wheelchair manufacturers don’t have that same luxury – every chair they build is different, and every chair requires up to 14 unique measurements – so the manufacturers literally don’t know until they get an order where they’re going to be cutting each tube. This means that they can’t use the material to its best advantage.

Every custom and made to measure titanium chair on the market currently uses single-wall thickness tubing – the nature of the way wheelchairs are bought and made makes it impossible to do otherwise.

If you take a good look at the major manufacturers of titanium wheelchairs (without mentioning any names, but their initials are t.i.l.i.g.h.t.), they also manufacture aluminum frames – and the weights are almost identical.

In the chart below, we show some of our competitors products compared to themselves, and compared to ours:

Aluminum is inferior to titanium (false. it’s actually lighter than titanium)
When we were going through our initial design of the Marvel wheelchair, we took a look at other industries for inspiration and direction. Of particular interest to us was the bicycle industry, partly because the design of a bike has had over a hundred years of revisions, and literally billions of dollars invested in the process. Bikes have been built out of every kind of material – starting with steel, moving to chro-molly steel, then aluminum, a brief fling with titanium in the mid-90’s, and now carbon fiber.

All of the world’s top bicycle companies have almost exclusively restricted themselves to aluminum and carbon fiber as materials for their bikes, and for good reasons.

Titanium enjoyed a brief moment in the sun in the bike world, with manufacturers touting the same advantages that the wheelchair builders are currently – light and strong, dampens vibration, doesn’t need to be painted, and vaguely described “ride characteristics”.

The truth is, comparing apples to apples, a length of titanium tube is heavier than the same length of aluminum tube. Again, as mentioned earlier, unless you butt the tubing, the material is just not being used in the right way.

The vibratory dampening characteristics of titanium have been used to promote the material, as was also the case in the bike industry – the reality though is that real vibration in a frame only happens at relatively high speeds – in excess of 25 km/h. What does happen at lower speeds is bumps – there is a slight acoustic vibration that results from bumps, but the real way to deal with the issue is through shock absorption, not vibratory dampening.

Titanium has been all but rejected in the bike industry – in favour of aluminum and carbon fiber – the materials that Marvel wheelchairs are made of."

[AbZ]

well i have a ti-lite zr chair too, its ok, i have just received it like a month ago... i weighted it and it weighs like 7.5kg in the frame only! is that supposed to be 'lite' (sorry for the pun)????

are there any carbon fiber chairs out there???

wat else is lieghter than the chair that i have now?

[Unbreakable]

AbZ, on Apr 10 2009, 11:26 PM, said:

well i have a ti-lite zr chair too, its ok, i have just received it like a month ago... i weighted it and it weighs like 7.5kg in the frame only! is that supposed to be 'lite' (sorry for the pun)????

are there any carbon fiber chairs out there???

wat else is lieghter than the chair that i have now?

Go here:

http://www.lasherspo...m/products.html

For between $5000-$6000 you can get a magnesium chair.

[russ1]

The Aluminium Vs Titanium debate and pseudo science justifications up there are hilarious - While Ti is undoubtably denser (not heavier) than alumium it's greater tensile strength means that for a tube of a given diameter to produce the same strength the wall thickness can be thinner meaning that the tube of the same strength in Ti can be lighter than Al. The whole butting argument applies just as much to Al as it does to Ti. Ti is just an harder material to work with (as well as being more expensive in the first place) than Aluminium which is therefore much cheaper and easier to produce.

Whether you personally like the results of a flexy light frame that can be produced using Ti is a completely different question but the "science" quoted above to try to show that Al is a 'better' material is just half truths and misrepresentation (or carefully selected marketing if you want to think of it that way), and as a civil engineer with a fair (degree level and above) knowledge of materials technology and properties of metals I do know what I'm talking about.

[Unbreakable]

russ1, on Apr 12 2009, 02:15 PM, said:

The Aluminium Vs Titanium debate and pseudo science justifications up there are hilarious - While Ti is undoubtably denser (not heavier) than alumium it's greater tensile strength means that for a tube of a given diameter to produce the same strength the wall thickness can be thinner meaning that the tube of the same strength in Ti can be lighter than Al. The whole butting argument applies just as much to Al as it does to Ti. Ti is just an harder material to work with (as well as being more expensive in the first place) than Aluminium which is therefore much cheaper and easier to produce.

Whether you personally like the results of a flexy light frame that can be produced using Ti is a completely different question but the "science" quoted above to try to show that Al is a 'better' material is just half truths and misrepresentation (or carefully selected marketing if you want to think of it that way), and as a civil engineer with a fair (degree level and above) knowledge of materials technology and properties of metals I do know what I'm talking about.

Ah, but what about this? If titanium is so great, why doesn't the bicycle industry use it anymore? Wheelchairs and bikes have alot in common...

"The vibratory dampening characteristics of titanium have been used to promote the material, as was also the case in the bike industry – the reality though is that real vibration in a frame only happens at relatively high speeds – in excess of 25 km/h. What does happen at lower speeds is bumps – there is a slight acoustic vibration that results from bumps, but the real way to deal with the issue is through shock absorption, not vibratory dampening.

Titanium has been all but rejected in the bike industry – in favour of aluminum and carbon fiber – the materials that Marvel wheelchairs are made of."

[FROG]

OK... tell ya' what. You all can keep your alumininum frames. I rode on one for many years. When I got in my TiLite titanium chair, it was by far the best ride I had ever experienced. I will never go back.

[Doppleganger]

AbZ, on Apr 11 2009, 06:26 AM, said:

well i have a ti-lite zr chair too, its ok, i have just received it like a month ago... i weighted it and it weighs like 7.5kg in the frame only! is that supposed to be 'lite' (sorry for the pun)????

I had to send my Cyclone Ti frame away to be repaired and as I was shipping from Sweden to the UK I stripped of the backrest, seat sling and front castors (not the forks) and was very surprised, no amazed that the frame only weighed 2kg (4.4lbs) !!!

[Jax]

AbZ, on Apr 10 2009, 11:26 PM, said:

well i have a ti-lite zr chair too, its ok, i have just received it like a month ago... i weighted it and it weighs like 7.5kg in the frame only! is that supposed to be 'lite' (sorry for the pun)????

are there any carbon fiber chairs out there???

wat else is lieghter than the chair that i have now?

What size is your seat? I have the Quickie GTi (which is made by TiLite through contract for Quickie, and is the same frame as the ZR, but with slightly different caster housings) in 16"X16", and the frame weight with standard padded upholstery, no pouch, cushion, or rear wheels is only a tiny bit over 11 lbs (about 5kg) with full suspension.

If you think that 7.5kg isn't light, you obviously haven't used a hospital chair for very long. I used one for about 7-8 weeks post injury, and it weighed about 45 lbs (a bit over 20kg). That's over twice what your chair weighs. Are you including a special rigid backrest in the weight? Large casters perhaps? I put the J3 back on my GTi, and the short backrest added about a pound to the weight of the chair. The taller backrests are up to 3 or 4 lbs.

There is a carbon fiber chair, but it's just over 13lbs (6kg). That's only about 2lbs lighter than a 16"X16" TiLite TR with the same rear wheels. The Magnesium chairs are down to 8.4lbs (3.8kg) transport weight (mind that there's no COG adjustment). If the 1-2lb difference is that big of a deal, then go for it. It's gonna cost a lot more than a TiLite for sure, especially to get a Cyclone or Lasher to Australia.

I don't get the debate over Ti v. Al. It's senseless. I've had an Al chair, and it's a great chair, but it was a GPV, and I needed something with suspension. I have the GTi with full suspension, and it's a great chair. With wheelchairs, I think it's more personal preference than anything. I like the look of the Ti satin finish with the black SPOX wheels and the black casters and black axle tube. I like the look of the Toxic Green GPV too, but not so much for everyday.

I can tell everyone one thing, the material isn't nearly as much of a factor in shock absorbing as the frame style when it comes to Al and Ti. The full suspension option has a lot to do with it too, as it's not available on all frames. The GPV is extremely rigid. Even with froglegs, it's too rigid for me to use for everyday. The GTi is not as rigid, even without the suspension. I tested the ZR, TR, Aero Z, Top End Terminator (Ti & Al), and several other chairs at a Turning Point event, and I have to say the Z-frames do have more flex and take more of the shock, no matter whether they're Ti or Al.

The only problems I can see with Al are frame breaks. I know an older gentleman who has taken his current Al chair to a machinist I know to have it welded a couple times. He has had 3 Al chairs since his injury, and has taken every one of them to have a frame break fixed prior to the 5 yr mark to get another. A friend of mine just took his Al chair to be welded a few weeks ago. I haven't heard of this problem with Ti, but it could be out there. I haven't tried the magnesium, but I am curious to see how it performs. I'm also curious as to the longevity of it.


No matter what the material, the chair isn't worth a shit if it's not properly fitted. If you get a chair that's too wide or narrow, or the COG is off, it's going to be a pain in the back. The reason there are so many different chairs available is because every individual is different, just like every injury is different. One person may love the GTi/ZR, but another may prefer the cantilevered style of the TR or T.E. Terminator. I like the GPV for the flat concrete and the couple times I've gotten on the court, but I hate it on anything that's not flat and solid. The GTi takes a beating every day, and saves my back from a lot of pain at the same time. A chair that's too wide will destroy shoulders FAST. Some people like lots of dump in their seats, some (like me) prefer the seat have only about 3/4" of dump. Some like UB like the high backs for long term comfort, and some only use the chair as "legs," and sit in another chair or on the couch most of the time. Some like the wheels set to a certain camber, some like no camber. It's all personal preference and proper fit. If it doesn't meet both of those requirements, any chair basically is shit.

Edited by Jax, 21 April 2009 - 06:14 PM.

[Unbreakable]

Quote

The Magnesium chairs are down to 8.4lbs (3.8kg) transport weight (mind that there's no COG adjustment).

Not true. This chair has adjustable COG.

http://www.lasherspo...cts-btmgas.html

And so does this one:

http://www.lasherspo...ucts-btmga.html

Edited by Unbreakable, 19 April 2009 - 05:36 PM.

[Jax]

Unbreakable, on Apr 19 2009, 12:34 PM, said:

Quote

The Magnesium chairs are down to 8.4lbs (3.8kg) transport weight (mind that there's no COG adjustment).

Not true. This chair has adjustable COG.

http://www.lasherspo...cts-btmgas.html

And so does this one:

http://www.lasherspo...ucts-btmga.html

Neither one of those is the 8.4lb one I was talking about. I was talking about the 8.4lb Lasher BT-Mg.

[Unbreakable]

Jax, on Apr 19 2009, 11:03 PM, said:

Unbreakable, on Apr 19 2009, 12:34 PM, said:

Quote

The Magnesium chairs are down to 8.4lbs (3.8kg) transport weight (mind that there's no COG adjustment).

Not true. This chair has adjustable COG.

http://www.lasherspo...cts-btmgas.html

And so does this one:

http://www.lasherspo...ucts-btmga.html

Neither one of those is the 8.4lb one I was talking about. I was talking about the 8.4lb Lasher BT-Mg.

OK, I see your point now. But, at just 9.8 pounds, the Lasher BT- Mga offers adjustable CoG. So, that's only about a pound and a half more than the BT-Mg. Not too shabby, huh?

I sure would like to sit in one of the chairs and feel what it's like to roll in something that light.

[greybeard]

Unbreakable, on Apr 20 2009, 03:40 PM, said:

Jax, on Apr 19 2009, 11:03 PM, said:

Unbreakable, on Apr 19 2009, 12:34 PM, said:

Quote

The Magnesium chairs are down to 8.4lbs (3.8kg) transport weight (mind that there's no COG adjustment).

Not true. This chair has adjustable COG.

http://www.lasherspo...cts-btmgas.html

And so does this one:

http://www.lasherspo...ucts-btmga.html

Neither one of those is the 8.4lb one I was talking about. I was talking about the 8.4lb Lasher BT-Mg.

OK, I see your point now. But, at just 9.8 pounds, the Lasher BT- Mga offers adjustable CoG. So, that's only about a pound and a half more than the BT-Mg. Not too shabby, huh?

I sure would like to sit in one of the chairs and feel what it's like to roll in something that light.

It's all a bit academic really isn't it. Your body only needs to be a few pounds overweight and all the benefits fly out the window. A couple of glasses of water would do it. Personally I'd have to be wearing an anti-gravity suit to feel the difference it would make to my 280 pounds.

[Jax]

greybeard, on Apr 20 2009, 10:32 AM, said:

Unbreakable, on Apr 20 2009, 03:40 PM, said:

OK, I see your point now. But, at just 9.8 pounds, the Lasher BT- Mga offers adjustable CoG. So, that's only about a pound and a half more than the BT-Mg. Not too shabby, huh?

I sure would like to sit in one of the chairs and feel what it's like to roll in something that light.

It's all a bit academic really isn't it. Your body only needs to be a few pounds overweight and all the benefits fly out the window. A couple of glasses of water would do it. Personally I'd have to be wearing an anti-gravity suit to feel the difference it would make to my 280 pounds.

UB, the TiLite TR is 9.9lbs frame weight in 16"X16" with standard upholstery, and it's adjustable CoG.

Graybeard, that's funny stuff. You make a good point though. From 9.9lbs to 8.4lbs isn't that much of a difference to anyone over about a hundred lbs. Now, switching from a 45lb hospital chair to a GTi is a noticeable difference for sure, but once you get below about a 13lb frame, the weight difference becomes much less noticeable from one frame to the next. Other than loading, I don't know if it's really that noticeable at all. The GPV I have is about 3lbs heavier than the GTi, and I can't tell the difference in weight when rolling. It's not even that noticeable of a weight difference when loading, but the GPV is a pain in the back to try to fit into a small cab because of it's box-style frame.