[acugirl]

Hi, I am new to this forum and I just posted some information about myself on my profile so that I can introduce myself appropriately - though I've never used this type of site and I am still not sure I'm doing it all correctly! I am an Acupuncturist and have studied medicine in one form or another all my life, I spent 5 years getting my degree in Chinese Medicine, including going to China for one year of that to apprentice with an Acupuncturist. I've always been very interested in treating neurological disorders and have seen many patients with MS, Parkinson's, Stroke, etc., and quite a few SCI's (though I know it's not necessarily classified as a neurological disorder - the nerves have been affected of course)... I had one patient who really was an inspiration to me that responded incredibly well to Acupuncture - this was her and my observation and we discussed how her PCP wasn't very open to the idea of Acupuncture helping in maintaining her quality of life as well as potentially increasing some sensation and/or feeling, yet she continues to go as she feels that it does and when she does not go for Acupuncture treatment she sees the difference, as in a reduction in her quality of life meaning her digestion isn't as strong, she feels less energy, to name a few things. I have since moved from where I lived when I was treating her but the idea of treating more people with SCI's has stuck in my mind because she responded so incredibly well. I'm developing a new practice now since moving and I wanted to learn more before I go further in reaching out to SCI patients. Sorry this is so long by the way! In any case, having spent a little time reading over posts the last few days I learned a lot about living with an SCI and things I never thought about even after studying about it & treating patients with an SCI, and I feel much more informed but I'm sure I am still far from close enough. There are so many topics that would be difficult to discuss with a patient in that type of setting and I can see that everyone is quite different but it helps a lot to have more of an understanding before even beginning. This forum is really amazing and I am going to recommend it to my patients and a friend who was recently injured and has an SCI.

My question to begin - and I hope this is okay for this forum - has anyone here had Acupuncture and do you feel that it helped? How is it viewed by this community or is it not really something that has been presented as a treatment option along the way?

[jaquie_farmer]

im fairly new at the whole sci deal; 9 months and 2 days to be exact. this is the first ive heard about acupuncture and sci's. im curious as to what its intended to do for us?

[acugirl]

Well from a TCM perspective (Traditional Chinese Medicine) you are aiming to increase the "qi" (energy for lack of a better translation - or perhaps the circuitry/electrical conduction; circulation) to the areas of paralysis. Beyond that you would also be treating a patient just as any other patient - if you have poor digestion, you treat the digestion. If you have neck pain, you treat the neck pain. Consequently, it's amazing for the treatment of digestive difficulties and pain in general but there are many other aspects it would be good for. I noticed a lot of people still have burning sensations post injury and I think Acupuncture would work well for this as I have treated that but not necessarily in people with SCI's but people who have had other illnesses or injuries. There is a study going on in the Toronto Rehabilitation Institute to see if Acupuncture treats burning pain in SCI injuries with success. There is another current study at Craig Hospital that is exploratory to see how Acupuncture would fare in treating acute SCI's. I could go on about what I think it would be good for as I can see it might have endless possibilities but I'm learning a lot myself about how it will fit in with SCI treatment.

This post has been edited by acugirl: 14 April 2009 - 08:46 PM

[Illinois Boy]

My mom took me to one about a year after my injury........ He was gonna cure me all up...... All he did was piss me off and drain my mom outta some serious cash........

Although, after the treatments I was able to drink water and water the lawn at the same time......

Jim

[acugirl]

Ha, that's a funny picture! I'm sorry to hear that you had a bad experience with it however. Much like all medical practitioners there are all kinds and not all are great perhaps. Also, unlike other medicine you need to go much more than one time, as it's an ongoing, cummulative process. I've heard too many people who've had poor experiences and I also attribute it to Acupuncture being relatively new in the US & Europe and without the appropriate regulation that it should have, and I always recommend that anyone who goes to investigate the Acupuncturists education (4 years minimum graduate work and a masters or PhD in science) along with just liking their practitioners vibe in general! Thanx for the hilarious picture btw!

[acugirl]

jaquie_farmer, on Apr 14 2009, 06:51 PM, said:

im fairly new at the whole sci deal; 9 months and 2 days to be exact. this is the first ive heard about acupuncture and sci's. im curious as to what its intended to do for us?

Well from a TCM perspective (Traditional Chinese Medicine) you are aiming to increase the "qi" (energy for lack of a better translation - or perhaps the circuitry/electrical conduction; circulation) to the areas of paralysis. Beyond that you would also be treating a patient just as any other patient - if you have poor digestion, you treat the digestion. If you have neck pain, you treat the neck pain. Consequently, it's amazing for the treatment of digestive difficulties and pain in general but there are many other aspects it would be good for. I noticed a lot of people still have burning sensations post injury and I think Acupuncture would work well for this as I have treated that but not necessarily in people with SCI's but people who have had other illnesses or injuries. There is a study going on in the Toronto Rehabilitation Institute to see if Acupuncture treats burning pain in SCI injuries with success. There is another current study at Craig Hospital that is exploratory to see how Acupuncture would fare in treating acute SCI's. I could go on about what I think it would be good for as I can see it might have endless possibilities but I'm learning a lot myself about how it will fit in with SCI treatment.

Illinois Boy, on Apr 14 2009, 07:08 PM, said:

My mom took me to one about a year after my injury........ He was gonna cure me all up...... All he did was piss me off and drain my mom outta some serious cash........

Although, after the treatments I was able to drink water and water the lawn at the same time......

Jim holes.jpeg

Ha, that's a funny picture! I'm sorry to hear that you had a bad experience with it however. Much like all medical practitioners there are all kinds and not all are great perhaps. Also, unlike other medicine you need to go much more than one time, as it's an ongoing, cummulative process. I've heard too many people who've had poor experiences and I also attribute it to Acupuncture being relatively new in the US & Europe and without the appropriate regulation that it should have, and I always recommend that anyone who goes to investigate the Acupuncturists education (4 years minimum graduate work and a masters or PhD in science) along with just liking their practitioners vibe in general! Thanx for the hilarious picture btw!

This post has been edited by acugirl: 14 April 2009 - 10:24 PM

[Illinois Boy]

I went to that idiot once a week for about 8 months....

Jim

[acugirl]

Illinois Boy, on Apr 14 2009, 11:48 PM, said:

I went to that idiot once a week for about 8 months....

Jim

I don't know what he did but that's really too bad, sounds like you didn't have a good experience. If you want to email/message me on here, I'd be curious to know what the goals of the treatment were? I hope that if you have another experience with an Acupuncturist it's a better one because I think it can be very beneficial. Great aquarium website by the way!

[AHolland]

I suffer from a lot of chronic neuropathic pain and as a result I have looked around and tried just about anything from herbal to Voodoo....okay, not voodoo, but I have tried Acupuncture. I looked around quite a bit for a person who was well regarded in the industry by fellow acupuncturists. I then tried it 6 times to make sure I had a little bit of a system going. During that time we tried different spots of the body. In the end I had to conclude that there was no benefit for me.

I would add for the benefit of acugirl that I have a complete spinal cord sever at the T3/4/5 area. 4cm of my spinal cord are gone. It may be that where some people benefit from the "energies" being stimulated in partially severed spinal cord cases, that complete severed spinal cord people do not see any benefit because the "energies" cannot jump the break I have.

In the end my search continues with my only successes being some medicines and some back massage. The back massage is probably just my knotted muscles in my back being relaxed. I usually buy about a week of a little bit of relief. In my case, any relief however small is appreciated.

If you need any more info on what I did, please send me a personal message as I only hit the forums once in a long while.

[acugirl]

AHolland, on Apr 15 2009, 12:43 AM, said:

I suffer from a lot of chronic neuropathic pain and as a result I have looked around and tried just about anything from herbal to Voodoo....okay, not voodoo, but I have tried Acupuncture. I looked around quite a bit for a person who was well regarded in the industry by fellow acupuncturists. I then tried it 6 times to make sure I had a little bit of a system going. During that time we tried different spots of the body. In the end I had to conclude that there was no benefit for me.

I would add for the benefit of acugirl that I have a complete spinal cord sever at the T3/4/5 area. 4cm of my spinal cord are gone. It may be that where some people benefit from the "energies" being stimulated in partially severed spinal cord cases, that complete severed spinal cord people do not see any benefit because the "energies" cannot jump the break I have.

In the end my search continues with my only successes being some medicines and some back massage. The back massage is probably just my knotted muscles in my back being relaxed. I usually buy about a week of a little bit of relief. In my case, any relief however small is appreciated.

If you need any more info on what I did, please send me a personal message as I only hit the forums once in a long while.

Thank you for your response, I really appreciate it. It is quite possible that there is a difference in treatment for incomplete versus complete SCI's with Acupuncture. Also, it is important to factor in the goal of the treatment which can range from treating SCI-related symptoms to general health concerns, as it would be a significant factor in gauging the effectiveness of treatment. I am getting the sense that in treating SCI's to improve that in and of itself, the SCI, is not necessarily getting great results, though I am hesitant in this only because when I have treated anyone with an SCI or a neurological condition, treatments need to be long term and you have to break down your goals into what you are trying to achieve ie. focusing on getting feeling; specific pains in the body (usually more successful); digestive issues (also successful); neuropathic pains, etc. And, a treatment plan for achieving sensory and/or motor function could potentially take years if it is going to be successful where as treating digestive issues could take only a few months. Then again, I wouldn't be responsible if I didn't say that every person is different and it is quite possible that Acupuncture could have no affect on certain patients or is not the best treatment option for everyone. I would love to hear more from you, thanx again!

[twisted_ophelia]

I've had acupuncture done by many different acupuncturists for chronic back pain and it did pretty much nothing for me. I do know people (non-SCI) who've really benefited from acupuncture but it just never worked well enough for me. I tried to do it regularly and for extended periods of time to see if it would eventually work but nope, nada.

This post has been edited by twisted_ophelia: 15 April 2009 - 04:29 AM

[greybeard]

Did sod all for me too. Just depleted the bank balance a bit.

Amended : Perhaps, for clarity, I should add that I'm not officially SCI, but L2 - L% nerve root compression.

This post has been edited by greybeard: 15 April 2009 - 12:03 PM

[acugirl]

twisted_ophelia, on Apr 15 2009, 04:28 AM, said:

I've had acupuncture done by many different acupuncturists for chronic back pain and it did pretty much nothing for me. I do know people (non-SCI) who've really benefited from acupuncture but it just never worked well enough for me. I tried to do it regularly and for extended periods of time to see if it would eventually work but nope, nada.

Thank you for your response, I'm finding all the responses here very interesting especially since most seem to be leaning towards Acupuncture not really helping. I actually was really skeptical (even being an Acupuncturist) when I treated my first SCI patient over 7 years ago because I thought if there is little to no nerve conduction how could it possibly work - but I have seen some great results and now I'm even more curious seeing these responses. I would never personally want to waste a person's time and/or money and when I see a patient who I don't think I can help, I pretty much tell them there are low chances, and hopefully refer them on to someone who can help better. However, I never thought that in terms of SCI.... at the moment I'm still leaning towards the possibility that it needs to be done for longer periods of time (meaning potentially a year minimum depending on the focus), and that there are certain aspects of SCI that will not be as treatable, finding out what is is the issue. If you hear of anyone with an SCI that has had successful treatment please let me know! Thank you!

[acugirl]

greybeard, on Apr 15 2009, 11:20 AM, said:

Did sod all for me too. Just depleted the bank balance a bit.

Amended : Perhaps, for clarity, I should add that I'm not officially SCI, but L2 - L% nerve root compression.

Thank you for your response! I also responded to twisted_ophelia above regarding the same response - that it was no help. If you don't mind my asking, were you going for back pain as well? I will say here that nerve root compression is a difficult thing to treat in terms of giving pain relief, and while I can't say it's impossible since every case is different I haven't personally seen a great result with Acu either regarding this. If you hear of anyone else with an SCI or a similar situation as yours that has been helped by Acu I'd love to hear, thank you!

This post has been edited by acugirl: 15 April 2009 - 12:39 PM

[hurbshankin]

I've had Accupuncture both pre and post SCI. I had great luck with it in high school when it cleared up my acne. As an athlete I used Accupuncture to balance my body. Post SCI I've noticed no benefit. I've been to some pretty accomplished Accupuncturists. I think since the Nervous system has been compromised, traditional methods can't be effective.

Hurb

[megatrig]

hmmmmm I'm just going down this route sooooo ... watch this space!

[acugirl]

hurbshankin, on Apr 15 2009, 03:58 PM, said:

I've had Accupuncture both pre and post SCI. I had great luck with it in high school when it cleared up my acne. As an athlete I used Accupuncture to balance my body. Post SCI I've noticed no benefit. I've been to some pretty accomplished Accupuncturists. I think since the Nervous system has been compromised, traditional methods can't be effective.

Hurb

That's great to hear you benefited pre-SCI. What were the intentions post-SCI for your Acupuncture treatment? I only ask because Acupuncture can treat a whole range of things and it would help to know what it didn't specifically help. Thank you for your response!

megatrig, on Apr 15 2009, 04:14 PM, said:

hmmmmm I'm just going down this route sooooo ... watch this space!

Are you just beginning treatment? Keep me posted on how it goes and I'm happy to answer any questions that might come up!

[acugirl]

Hi again! I noticed loads of people are reading this but not many are posting (which is fine) but if you happen to read this and have any opinion at all about the topic that you'd like to share, I'm really eager/curious to hear anything whatsoever: ie. you disliked Acupuncture and it did nothing for you; you loved it and benefited; you have never heard of it; you think it's hogwash/voodoo; you don't believe in it; you would like to learn more, etc. I'm just here to learn from all of you, thank you again!

[LuckyinKentucky]

I did it for a while after my injury.. I feel like i probably wasted a good bit of cash that could have done a lot more good elsewhere but when you are faced with the reality of paralyzation you will about try anything to escape it and often having a couple grand from a settlement or insurance payoff you be more than happy to fork it over for a little slice of maybeitllhelp. So obviously there will always be a market in the SCI community for TCM, wild invasive procedures in foreign countries, and a plethora of other non traditional medical venues. Now accugirl I'm not saying that your therapy could not benefit anyone, I'm sure there are cases in which your treatment could be helpful. But as it seems from the response from this community (which is about as good a SCI sample audience out there) that benefit will probably be in less cases than more and it will be your ethical decision as a healer to make the call whether to tell the patient if they are wasting their time and money. I've never been in those shoes but I would imagine this a tough call to make, Having seen all the benefits you no doubt have in your travels, along with the fact that there are a steady stream of fresh SCI's.

[acugirl]

LuckyinKentucky, on Apr 17 2009, 04:42 AM, said:

I did it for a while after my injury.. I feel like i probably wasted a good bit of cash that could have done a lot more good elsewhere but when you are faced with the reality of paralyzation you will about try anything to escape it and often having a couple grand from a settlement or insurance payoff you be more than happy to fork it over for a little slice of maybeitllhelp. So obviously there will always be a market in the SCI community for TCM, wild invasive procedures in foreign countries, and a plethora of other non traditional medical venues. Now accugirl I'm not saying that your therapy could not benefit anyone, I'm sure there are cases in which your treatment could be helpful. But as it seems from the response from this community (which is about as good a SCI sample audience out there) that benefit will probably be in less cases than more and it will be your ethical decision as a healer to make the call whether to tell the patient if they are wasting their time and money. I've never been in those shoes but I would imagine this a tough call to make, Having seen all the benefits you no doubt have in your travels, along with the fact that there are a steady stream of fresh SCI's.

Hi LuckyinKentucky, Thank you for your response! I actually just came across an old posting that began in 2006 here on Apparelyzed : http://www.apparelyzed.com/forums/index.ph...hl=chiropractor it's under the Health & SCI Forum and I believe the title was "Acupuncture, does it help with pain?". In any case, there are about 5-6 people on there who had very positive results with Acupuncture treatment and it was very interesting if you want to check it out. I agree it's very important to be ethical about not wasting a patients time (or money) and that is part of why I am here, I wanted to learn from everyone and their experiences. I think there is yet a lot to discover about how TCM will fit in with SCI treatment and hopefully it will become more clear how it can help and if it's better for people with complete or incomplete injuries, for pain management, skin problems, etc. Again, thank you for your words and keep me posted if you hear of more information.

[LuckyinKentucky]

Like i said before there will surely be some out there that will benefit from accu and maybe there are other ways to benefit from it besides from neurological regeneration. I would also like to remind you that there is a percentage of people afflicted with SCI that naturally regain sensation or feeling. I've seen studies with stem cell where they find a case that is already looking good for recovery and do a procedure so they can attribute said recovery to their work. Also this board has over 10,000 members and I'm glad that a few from the small percentage of beneficiary's from Accu have spoken up so you can be witness. But keep in mind that that is one out of thousands. And to imply that those results could come from your treatment to a potential client would be not only wrong and unethical but also immoral. In order to avoid contempt from future clientele I would not even mention the ever so slim chances of regaining sensory or motor. But again that is your choice to make and if you do choose to imply this kind of possible recovery you can probably count on at least a month or two of visits... followed by contempt.

Wheelchair users do however accrue a lot of stress, strains, and injuries thoroughout the journey( carpal tunnel, back pain, nerve pain, rotator cuff problems, and an assortment of other lovely trials) for those who have been in a chair a while these would be the things to target i would think.

[acugirl]

Hi LuckyinKentucky! Thank you again for your post. I completely am in line with what you are saying regarding purporting to be able to treat neurological regeneration and/or nerve sensation and movement with Acupuncture (as with any and all treatments today it is all still being discovered as to how it can help SCI's). It would not be responsible, nor ethical, and I don't agree with people who would claim that it can happen without a doubt. And yes, it's a small percentage from this forum that is responding at all to the Acu question, and then an even smaller percentage of that that is responding with positive results, so it is by no means a "clinical trial" or the kind of appropriate research that should be done, etc - but rather more an exchange of ideas - and I really appreciate your input. In fact, while I hope that it can be done in some cases (ie. regaining some sensation/motor skills) - I am here more to learn what people experience having an SCI and what symptoms/issues come from wheelchair usage as you mentioned, or other SCI related side effects which Acupuncture could potentially be useful for - my goal is the quality of life as I may have mentioned at the beginning of the thread, anything else would be a bonus. Again, keep me posted on anything you come across or hear if you so wish and thank you so much for your responses! It is very helpful and much appreciated.

LuckyinKentucky, on Apr 17 2009, 05:33 PM, said:

Like i said before there will surely be some out there that will benefit from accu and maybe there are other ways to benefit from it besides from neurological regeneration. I would also like to remind you that there is a percentage of people afflicted with SCI that naturally regain sensation or feeling. I've seen studies with stem cell where they find a case that is already looking good for recovery and do a procedure so they can attribute said recovery to their work. Also this board has over 10,000 members and I'm glad that a few from the small percentage of beneficiary's from Accu have spoken up so you can be witness. But keep in mind that that is one out of thousands. And to imply that those results could come from your treatment to a potential client would be not only wrong and unethical but also immoral. In order to avoid contempt from future clientele I would not even mention the ever so slim chances of regaining sensory or motor. But again that is your choice to make and if you do choose to imply this kind of possible recovery you can probably count on at least a month or two of visits... followed by contempt.

Wheelchair users do however accrue a lot of stress, strains, and injuries thoroughout the journey( carpal tunnel, back pain, nerve pain, rotator cuff problems, and an assortment of other lovely trials) for those who have been in a chair a while these would be the things to target i would think.

[acugirl]

Again - anyone who comes through this posting please let me know what you think of/have heard of/experiences with Acupuncture! Am really appreciative of ALL the responses I've gotten so far! Thank you.

[Cowboysfan444]

acugirl, on Apr 14 2009, 09:35 AM, said:

Hi, I am new to this forum and I just posted some information about myself on my profile so that I can introduce myself appropriately - though I've never used this type of site and I am still not sure I'm doing it all correctly! I am an Acupuncturist and have studied medicine in one form or another all my life, I spent 5 years getting my degree in Chinese Medicine, including going to China for one year of that to apprentice with an Acupuncturist. I've always been very interested in treating neurological disorders and have seen many patients with MS, Parkinson's, Stroke, etc., and quite a few SCI's (though I know it's not necessarily classified as a neurological disorder - the nerves have been affected of course)... I had one patient who really was an inspiration to me that responded incredibly well to Acupuncture - this was her and my observation and we discussed how her PCP wasn't very open to the idea of Acupuncture helping in maintaining her quality of life as well as potentially increasing some sensation and/or feeling, yet she continues to go as she feels that it does and when she does not go for Acupuncture treatment she sees the difference, as in a reduction in her quality of life meaning her digestion isn't as strong, she feels less energy, to name a few things. I have since moved from where I lived when I was treating her but the idea of treating more people with SCI's has stuck in my mind because she responded so incredibly well. I'm developing a new practice now since moving and I wanted to learn more before I go further in reaching out to SCI patients. Sorry this is so long by the way! In any case, having spent a little time reading over posts the last few days I learned a lot about living with an SCI and things I never thought about even after studying about it & treating patients with an SCI, and I feel much more informed but I'm sure I am still far from close enough. There are so many topics that would be difficult to discuss with a patient in that type of setting and I can see that everyone is quite different but it helps a lot to have more of an understanding before even beginning. This forum is really amazing and I am going to recommend it to my patients and a friend who was recently injured and has an SCI.

My question to begin - and I hope this is okay for this forum - has anyone here had Acupuncture and do you feel that it helped? How is it viewed by this community or is it not really something that has been presented as a treatment option along the way?

acugirl, on Apr 14 2009, 09:35 AM, said:

Hi, I am new to this forum and I just posted some information about myself on my profile so that I can introduce myself appropriately - though I've never used this type of site and I am still not sure I'm doing it all correctly! I am an Acupuncturist and have studied medicine in one form or another all my life, I spent 5 years getting my degree in Chinese Medicine, including going to China for one year of that to apprentice with an Acupuncturist. I've always been very interested in treating neurological disorders and have seen many patients with MS, Parkinson's, Stroke, etc., and quite a few SCI's (though I know it's not necessarily classified as a neurological disorder - the nerves have been affected of course)... I had one patient who really was an inspiration to me that responded incredibly well to Acupuncture - this was her and my observation and we discussed how her PCP wasn't very open to the idea of Acupuncture helping in maintaining her quality of life as well as potentially increasing some sensation and/or feeling, yet she continues to go as she feels that it does and when she does not go for Acupuncture treatment she sees the difference, as in a reduction in her quality of life meaning her digestion isn't as strong, she feels less energy, to name a few things. I have since moved from where I lived when I was treating her but the idea of treating more people with SCI's has stuck in my mind because she responded so incredibly well. I'm developing a new practice now since moving and I wanted to learn more before I go further in reaching out to SCI patients. Sorry this is so long by the way! In any case, having spent a little time reading over posts the last few days I learned a lot about living with an SCI and things I never thought about even after studying about it & treating patients with an SCI, and I feel much more informed but I'm sure I am still far from close enough. There are so many topics that would be difficult to discuss with a patient in that type of setting and I can see that everyone is quite different but it helps a lot to have more of an understanding before even beginning. This forum is really amazing and I am going to recommend it to my patients and a friend who was recently injured and has an SCI.

My question to begin - and I hope this is okay for this forum - has anyone here had Acupuncture and do you feel that it helped? How is it viewed by this community or is it not really something that has been presented as a treatment option along the way?

[mcferguson]

I am currently trying accupuncture treatments twice a week. Thankfully my accupuncturist is treating me as a case study and doing the work for free. I have been going for two months and haven't noticed any benefits. Through googling the subject and anecdotal evidence, I understand that the benefits to SCIs take place over a long period of time. I don't have my hopes set on anything in particular, but I figure why not give it a try. Western medicine doesn't understand everything about the human body and it can't do anything more for me right now anyway. I'll post if anything comes back.

[megatrig]

I am trying Acupunture too......................

I don't know what to expect but it seems to be helping blood flow through my legs and my feet arev a better colour!

I'm a very very sceptical person soooooooooooo................

watch this space really!

[Slowlegs]

An SCI friend said he had it and swore it cured his UTI's for three months. Mind you he had been on some hospital only antibiotics for a while so that may have helped. Hate to think where they stick the needles for that! I think a lot of people get the placebo effect from accupuncture. I think it does work but I also think they possibly see all those needles sticking in and something physical happening and feel it must do something. That and also they must be pretty convinced it will help in order to get prepared for all of those needles to be inserted in the first place.

This post has been edited by Slowlegs: 16 August 2009 - 04:00 AM

[Pressingontx]

An Acupuncturist worked on one of our clients whose hands were always in the "clenched" position and over time her hands did loosen up. Of course we also stretched her hands and put them on the Power Plate regularly, so its tough to say which was more beneficial.

[russ1]

I had it a couple of times about 4 months post injury for shoulder pain - it did nothing and was quite unpleasant - not going down that route again.

[carole338]

My sister gets acupuncture for her back pain. It is successful in her case. I am interested in it since I have an incomplete injury.