[baylisst]

Hi everyone!

I'm not sure if this is the most suitable place to ask questions, so if there's anywhere more suitable I apologise for not posting there. I'm currently a third year engineering student, and we've been given a project for the year to design a mechanical assistant for standing and walking used by recovering paraplegia patients - devides such as walkers and lifts, like this, this and this.

I have attached a questionnaire, and would be delighted if anyone has the time to fill it out for me In addition, if anyone has friends that would be willing to fill this out or knows of more forums for people who use this equipment, I would be so thankful if you could let them know about this, or send them a copy. I'll also start similar topics anywhere you guys may suggest. Anyone who does fill this out, feel free to PM or email me, or just post your answers in the topic. I would be so grateful if anybody could help!

We attempted to make an appointment at a local hospital, but were only allowed to look at their equipment, and so didn't get the chance to talk to people who actually use it

Also, if anyone wants to know how the project's doing further into development please let me know - I'll be glad to keep you all up to date. We may be building a prototype, so hopefully we'll have videos and photos too.
Thanks a bunch in advance!

Attached File(s)

•  Forum_questionnaire.rtf (3.23K)
  Number of downloads: 108

[dangerousdave]

This 1 - My hips won't let me
This 2 - Didn't download
This 3 - My knees won't let me
Now if you strap me to a board, support my bum, I'll have a new view of the world.
No ta, I'm happy where I am.

[baylisst]

dangerousdave, on Oct 23 2009, 09:33 PM, said:

This 1 - My hips won't let me
This 2 - Didn't download
This 3 - My knees won't let me
Now if you strap me to a board, support my bum, I'll have a new view of the world.
No ta, I'm happy where I am.

Ok, points taken, thanks Dave!

I was told by mcferguson that it would be an idea to include a question with regards to the type of injury people have suffered - could anyone filling out the questionnaire let me know please?

And thanks to mcferguson for being the first to fill it out too!!!

[edlee]

The only adaptive equipment I currently use is a wheelchair. While I owned a standing frame for five years, I used it rarely,,, mostly because of the effort involved. I have since given it to someone who , I hope, will get more use out of it.

As to your first example,,, all I can say is,,WHY,,, but people are different and I'm sure he is happy about it. To me it just seems so futile.

I guess you could say that my lift, in my van,,, and my seat that allows me to more easily transfer into it,,, along with the driving controls,, would be adaptive devices. I also use a reaching device to get things from places I can't.

I guess there are more than I first realized,,, If I think of more, I'll post again.
ed

[baylisst]

edlee, on Oct 24 2009, 04:51 AM, said:

The only adaptive equipment I currently use is a wheelchair. While I owned a standing frame for five years, I used it rarely,,, mostly because of the effort involved. I have since given it to someone who , I hope, will get more use out of it.

As to your first example,,, all I can say is,,WHY,,, but people are different and I'm sure he is happy about it. To me it just seems so futile.

I guess you could say that my lift, in my van,,, and my seat that allows me to more easily transfer into it,,, along with the driving controls,, would be adaptive devices. I also use a reaching device to get things from places I can't.

I guess there are more than I first realized,,, If I think of more, I'll post again.
ed

Cheers ed. And yeah, that was my first thought when I saw that first example - seems like such a huge effort.

[dangerousdave]

As I recall
These so called standing frames were brought about because some proffesor thought it would aid food digestion if we stoodup after meals.
Trouble is with our damage being in differant areas of the spine.........
They should have gone back to the early 50's when we were hung from the cieling.
My old friend who passed away in his 70's was treated like that for his crushed spine.
Tried to use those armpit crutches once, but couldn't control my balance.
I'll stay within the confine of my wheels, ta.
Except when they say bugger off........and I'm on the floor again.

[edlee]

There's a thought,, how about something,,, portable,, to get us off the floor and into our chairs? Something we could use by ourselves if necesary.

Or are you looking for ideas of a more complex nature?
ed

[guido]

That 1st guy is a gymnast! I look for recovery but that looks like really hard work and I'm not sure I can see it catching on!
2nd is already designed, unless you can do a hoist that is super light-weight and portable (& affordable) that people can use it to take travelling.
3rd has also kinda been done.

You've got a pretty wide brief there, and not sure what I understand you want to design. Mechanical aid for standing and walking, as in something to aid with rehab, or every day living? Lots of these sorts of things exist, though I would be tempted to aim for PORTABLE & AFFORDABLE. I would love a truly portable, though robust and safe, standing frame for when I'm away more than 3 days.

[baylisst]

Thanks for your feedback so far guys. Sorry I wasn't clearer about stuff beforehand! Like guido says, the brief is so vague about what we need to do, we could create almost any solution to this. To answer your question guido - rehab or everyday living - this is something unspecified, and we need to find out from people what they'd like the most.

It does indeed need to be portable. We've looked at the ones that are attached to ceilings, like the one dave's talking about, but it's been specified that it does need to be portable, free standing and can be used by the patient without the need for any assistance. Originally it was specified that it needed to allow the user to stand or walk unaided, but this has now changed to stand AND walk unaided; we'll want to work sitting in as well.

Also, we're not looking into using example 1; this was just something I plucked from a Google search - I've been finding it very difficult to find the sort of thing that we need to design on the internet. We're looking at something like example 2 for the standing part, but have no idea what we want to assist with walking. We've established there's a diverse enough range of products that we can take bits from lots of different designs, and then design anything left over. But the problem is that we don't know what people want. Here's an example page with a large number of existing frames, the problem is it's all in Chinese!

http://www.chader.com.tw/cart/index.php?ma...x&cPath=2_8

The main issue is that mechanically walking is very difficult; apart from a Honda concept, the only thing we've come across is the ReWalk, and that looks impossibly complex!

I wish it was as simple as that ed, but as I said, it needs to be walking too

[guido]

I think that's a weak brief, and asking a lot. Re-read your original post and see that it says "...for recovering paraplegics" so reckon you want to talk to the walkers here and see what they think. Maybe you need a simple walking frame but sturdy as well as portable ,and one that doesn't cost the earth. I use one like this for some of my exercises - though this company is a rip-off and the product is pretty weak - have had to strengthen it, but in theory it could be made to pack up. BUt if you are doing something, you could also look at the front wheels, as they're small so catch in small holes, dips, etc... Either try bigger wheels or two wheels movable on a central pivot with a track around them, kinda like a tank, so they go over stuff better (see what I mean).... (though these jokers were talking about a retail of £495.... WHAT????)

Meanwhile the Italians have been building this, Look for "walking frame DYNAMICO for adults"

A few ideas...

However, if you guys do like designing this kind of stuff, I have a raft of ideas that need an engineering mind...

[baylisst]

Thanks a bunch guido, all of that is immensley useful! Yeah it is quite a weak brief. The one I had to do last year was even worse, and that was designing a crane for aircraft construction! Took us about two months before we established what the supervisors actually wanted us to design.

Safety is our top priority for this - if it topples over within 5 minutes of you standing up then it would be fairly useless. Are there any walkers you know of on here, or is there a forum section specifically for them? Both of those sites you linked look brilliant, and I haven't seen that tank-like design before, so that is definitely going to become a viable option, especially as it appears to be useable up steps as well. We are going to look into keeping costs as low as possible with this; I think you've made quite an important observation in telling us there arent many cost effective, safe solutions currently available. I wowched at £500... We're considering making it foldable as well - we've seen a couple like this - though obviously sturdiness might suffer for it.

And the Dynamico is nearly exactly what I (personally) have in mind for this. Obviously I can't speak for the rest of my group, but that with a seating attachment of some description is perfect. Only alteration I would make is to get it more "all-terrain" - seems like it could only be used on flat ground, like indoors.

And, seriously, any ideas you can throw at us would be welcomed eagerly. The more ideas we get, then the better the initial design process will be - espcially in the eyes of one of our supervisors. He's really bureaucratic!
Thanks again

[guido]

I don't buy this business of "folding compromises sturdiness". If we put a man on the moon 40 years ago, I'm sure we have the technology to do a lightweight fix on a fold!

If you go for something similar to that italian model then I might suggest a couple of points: many standing frames are a bugger to secure yourself into: they require more ability or a help from someone else - so have a clever look at that element (esp. given it's part of your brief); not overly convinced of the x-country element, as I can't really imagine anyone taking such a walker outside and too chunky would be harder to use inside (maybe I'm totally wrong on that?); use non-marking tyres; if you get on a slope, what's to stop it running away with you..?; width.. need to get through doorways, some frames are a bugger to move around from room to room.

Hey ho, will be interested to see what you come up with. PM me as you go.

[dangerousdave]

Hi Guido
"If we put a man on the moon 40 years ago"
Tell me you didn't fall for all that filming done in Arizona.

1 - There is a ionization belt surrounding earth protecting us from harmful radioactive waves constantly emited by the sun - it is after all a constantly exploding nuclear bomb. We wouldn't exist without it
2 - Space is a vacum and sucks into it any heat
So compare the insulation on the space platform cells to that on a rocket capsual
3 - Do you realy think that spindaly landing platform could stay together for a small rocket launch

Then you have all the debunkem tv shows showing waving flags in a vacum etc etc

You'll be tellin me you believe in a god next

Ohhhhhh I like that travelling shower chair

This post has been edited by dangerousdave: 27 October 2009 - 12:40 PM

[guido]

dangerousdave, on Oct 27 2009, 10:04 AM, said:

Hi Guido
"If we put a man on the moon 40 years ago"
Tell me you didn't fall for all that filming done in Arizona.

1 - There is a ionization belt surrounding earth protecting us from harmful radioactive waves constantly emited by the sun - it is after all a constantly exploding nuclear bomb. We wouldn't exist without it
2 - Space is a vacum and sucks into it any heat
So compare the insulation on the space platform cells to that on a rocket capsual
3 - Do you realy think that spindaly landing platform could stay together for a small rocket launch

Then you have all the debunkem tv shows showing waving flags in a vacum etc etc

You'll be tellin me you believe in a god next

Ohhhhhh I like that travelling shower chair

Hey Dangerous

Cool. A conspiracy theorist. I don't know too much about space landings (evidently) but I limit my CTs to what those politicians are up to!

No, not a great one for god. He seems to damn hypocritical and self-obsessed to me. If he created man in his own image, he's a violent, warring SoaB and I'm not sure that all those civilians caught up in particularly nasty civil wars all round the place would necessarily think of it all as a test of their faith!

But I do still believe in Man's ability to make a joint sturdy in a portable disability device/aid!

And as for that shower chair... love it. Can give you links to other sites selling it too, so you can compare prices, just PM me. When I get the company to make me some for sale on my site, the only addition I will make is to have liftable arms, to make sideways transfer a little easier (not really a problem as I come in from a slight angle). But gotta say, I love it, and the fact it folds INTO a suitcase.

Anyhoo, stay lucky!

[dangerousdave]

Hi Guido

And as for that shower chair... love it. Can give you links to other sites selling it too, so you can compare prices, just PM me. When I get the company to make me some for sale on my site, the only addition I will make is to have liftable arms, to make sideways transfer a little easier (not really a problem as I come in from a slight angle). But gotta say, I love it, and the fact it folds INTO a suitcase.

The arms are required for structual support, but one up and one down would be OK
Trouble with people like me is we dont SIT down, we flop down, we throw ourselves down
Too lazy to use a transfer board.

This post has been edited by dangerousdave: 28 October 2009 - 10:52 AM

[baylisst]

Thanks for the feedback you two. I'm pretty certain that it's possible to make something sturdy that has a joint in it as well, it's just a case of designing it well enough that the supervisors believe that it'll be sturdy. Folding into a suitcase does sound cool though...

Thanks for the heads up with regards to self-securing, hadn't thought of that aspect yet - obviously we've been looking at wrist straps and the like, but didn't really consider the problem of doing it unaided. And I guess you're right with regards to the ability to take it outside - I was getting bogged down in trying to make it do EVERYTHING!! ;) Would you say something for outdoor or indoor use would be more useful? I guess with indoors you've got the problem of maneuverability like you said, but then, once you get outside, you've got uneven surfaces, exposure to the elements, and it's not like the need for maneuverability disappears either...

And slopes; it's pretty easy to install a speed limiter, and if we make it motorised then we can stop it exceeding the desired speed. Just make sure the electronics don't fail or the drivetrain becomes detached! But thanks for mentioning it; I hadn't thought of it yet.

Just spent the past hour reading about moon landing conspiracies...

dangerousdave, on Oct 28 2009, 06:51 PM, said:

Hi Guido

And as for that shower chair... love it. Can give you links to other sites selling it too, so you can compare prices, just PM me. When I get the company to make me some for sale on my site, the only addition I will make is to have liftable arms, to make sideways transfer a little easier (not really a problem as I come in from a slight angle). But gotta say, I love it, and the fact it folds INTO a suitcase.

The arms are required for structual support, but one up and one down would be OK
Trouble with people like me is we dont SIT down, we flop down, we throw ourselves down
Too lazy to use a transfer board.

Sorry for the double post... missed yours while writing dave! Would you want to use something a little speedier for sitting, save all that flopping?

Ah wow, this forum's so cool... no double posting!!

This post has been edited by baylisst: 28 October 2009 - 10:59 AM

[baylisst]

Was just wondering if those that downloaded the questionnaire have had time to fill them out yet?

We have a meeting with our supervisors on Monday where we should, hopefully, start to finalise the design. We currently have a small selection of possibilities, based on the kind advice we've received from you all. Those that might like to see the designs, including guido, let me know!

[Sleepycg]

hello,
I am not sure if this is the right place for your survey either or this message back to you...I came here looking for a second power chair that might be lighter than the one I have now and don't quite fit the person you are looking for (I do have a SCI but the bigger issues is Muscular Dystrophy) I couldn't open your survey, have you tried survey monkey? I was just wondering if you have a design yet for your projects? I am a med stu 3rd yr. Last year I presented a walker design I idea at the Usability Day Conference here in Michigan and haven't really done anything with this since then just a few fleeting ideas. It was in the "work in progress category" and if you would like to look at taking it further (and willing to give me a little credit for it too) I wouldn't mind sharing it. I am not at all an engineer so if you want my poster pics & abstract...don't laugh too much... e-mail me if you are interested my school e-mail is gauldenc@msu.edu

baylisst, on Oct 23 2009, 07:07 AM, said:

Hi everyone!

I'm not sure if this is the most suitable place to ask questions, so if there's anywhere more suitable I apologise for not posting there. I'm currently a third year engineering student, and we've been given a project for the year to design a mechanical assistant for standing and walking used by recovering paraplegia patients - devides such as walkers and lifts, like this, this and this.

I have attached a questionnaire, and would be delighted if anyone has the time to fill it out for me In addition, if anyone has friends that would be willing to fill this out or knows of more forums for people who use this equipment, I would be so thankful if you could let them know about this, or send them a copy. I'll also start similar topics anywhere you guys may suggest. Anyone who does fill this out, feel free to PM or email me, or just post your answers in the topic. I would be so grateful if anybody could help!

We attempted to make an appointment at a local hospital, but were only allowed to look at their equipment, and so didn't get the chance to talk to people who actually use it

Also, if anyone wants to know how the project's doing further into development please let me know - I'll be glad to keep you all up to date. We may be building a prototype, so hopefully we'll have videos and photos too.
Thanks a bunch in advance!

[Amy Bell]

You may want to look into this new exoskeleton device which is currently undergoing clinical trials.

For more information go to http://rewalk.com or email info@rewalk.com

[baylisst]

Hey all, sorry for the exceedingly late reply, been rather busy with exams and Christmas and all that jazz.

@ Sleepycg: Thanks for the offer of your old materials, I'll send you an email in a few minutes. Of course credit will be given where it's due too ;)
@ Amy: Thank for sending me that. Our group found it early in the concept research process, but didn't know of that email address. We'll be in touch if we go down that exoskeleton-y route

We plan on having a final design chosen by Monday, so (if everything goes according to plan) I should be able to put up a picture or link to an animation or something.
Cheers all!