25 replies to this topic

[JAdams]

Jeff Adams here - one of the co-founders of Marvel Wheelchairs.

There has been a bunch of conversation on these forums, so I'd like to make myself available to answer any questions that people might have on the Marvel M1.

Please let us know what you think of it. The current design of the M1 came as a result of an enormous amount of research, testing, and design review using real people who really use wheelchairs - we tried to canvass a good cross section of riders, high and low paras and high and low quads. As hard as we tried though, we know that there are going to be a lot of unique needs and requests - so we want to listen to the suggestions and the feedback, and will commit to doing everything we can to respond in the best way we can.

I've read the threads here, and want to respond to a few of the themes that seem to be at the forefront.

Marvel the company: Marvel was started by four people - myself and Christian Bagg, two guys who have used wheelchairs for 45 years cumulatively, and Phil White and Gerard Vroomen, two guys who own Cervelo Cycles, and who build the best bikes in the world (the Cervelo sponsored team won the Tour de France last year, and had the most stage wins on the pro circuit this year).

The reason we partnered with a bike company was to gain access to their research and development, their engineers (the guy who engineered the suspension on the M1 for us was Paul Tracey's engineer when he was racing for Penske before he came to Cervelo), and most of all to make sure that this isn't just another small wheelchair company with a good idea that is only around for a year or so.

Price: The M1 was priced to be competitive in the market, and the price is "all in" as opposed to a base price plus options - when you compare "apples to apples", and put similar options on the other major brands in the market, the M1 is equal to or less than the competition.

Having said that, the M1 has an ENORMOUS amount of technology designed into it - the front castor wing is a hydroformed part with variable guage wall thickness to optimize strength and weight - the frame is made entirely of custom extruded tubes, the chair is entirely carbon fiber from the seat pan up, and it has the best suspension on the market.

Material: We followed the lead of the bicycle industry and turned away from titanium - it's difficult to work with, and very limiting in terms of the manufacturing processes that you can use. It has been all but entirely rejected by the bike manufacturers, in favour of aluminum and carbon fiber, mostly because in the last ten years or so those materials have improved to the point where they are the materials of choice. You can read more about why we decided in favour of aluminum and carbon over titanium here.

Weight: The M1 is 1/2 pound heavier than a TiLite ZR with similar components, except that the M1 has full adjustability, and suspension. The specific weights of the M1 component parts (in lbs) are:

Frame set w/wing, carbon back, carbon seat and sideguards - 14.95
Rogue Wheels (loaded) - 8.1
Brakes - 1.6
Transfer handles - .6
Rogue back cushion - .35
anti-tip - 1.2 lbs
2x 1" seat spacer - .2 lbs

14.95 lbs with no wheels, 22.5 lbs all in, 26.55 lbs with a bunch of accessories.

Photo four in our gallery shows the M1 on a scale here.

We're confident that this weight stacks up to the competition - please remember that comparisons should be "apples to apples" to be fair - solid seat, solid back, adjustable - AND should be "real world scale" weight, NOT "published in marketing materials" weight.

Adjustability: We designed the M1 to be adjustable for a number of reasons, principally because we know first hand how difficult it is to get all those measurements right.

The M1 adjusts every measurement - and acknowledging that previous adjustable chairs have had "rattle loose" issues, the M1 passed the 200 000 cycle RESNA bump test without a single readjustment of any component - last video on the page here. In the same way as a Cervelo cycle has an enormous amount of adjustable components that don't rattle loose on the decents through the Alps in the Tour de France, the M1 doesn't loosen up either - the components were all designed in the same way that high quality bike parts are.

The adjustability also allows for the rider to "adjust" their lifestyle and their physical situation - whether it's gaining chair skills for someone who is new to using a wheelchair and needs to gradually increase the COG, or someone gaining or losing weight or going from sea to ski and needs to widen the seat to wear heavier clothing, the M1 responds and adjusts to accomodate.

It's great chair for someone going through the rehab process where the chair geometry they need on day one is certainly not going to be the geometry they need after even a couple of weeks let alone a year down the road. It's equally great for an experienced user who often is onto their 3rd or 4th chair before they start to get close to "dialing it in".

It has a profound effect on "trialing" the chair - when a rider trials the chair, it can be set up exactly the way they will get it on delivery - no more testing in a demo chair that is close but not quite right, and changing a key measurement by an inch or so when it comes time to fill out the order form.

The M1 has an adjustable seat angle that can be fine tuned so that you don't have to take a best guess at how many inches of seat dump you want - and you have the luxury of changing your mind about any of those measurements after a day or a month or a year - for any reason whatsoever.

The adjustability also lets us do some pretty radical things in terms of delivery - we had a rider call us from Austria last week on Wednesday at just after 5pm - their chair had been wrecked in an accident with a gondola, and they needed a new chair immediately. I stayed late to start the build, it was finished in the morning and QC'd by our head mechanic, shipped out that morning, and got to him 36 hours after his call, going from Toronto to Austria, and it fit perfectly because we could adjust it to his measurements.

We rushed the order for him, but we regularly ship within 24 hours of getting an order, which is unheard of for a high end chair, and all but impossible for a conventional custom fit order.

Suspension: We think suspension is critical to any sophisticated vehicle - we've been asking people to name another vehicle without suspension - skateboards have suspension, even office chairs have suspension.

The reason office chairs have suspension is because even a chair doesn't move, having suspension has an enormous beneficial effect on fatigue.

We think the M1 does suspension the right way - it doesn't bob and sap power, nor does it "rebound" and throw the rider up and forward, nor does is shift the cog backwards causing "tippiness". See video here.

The suspension has fully adjustable damp and rebound, can be tailored to the rider weight in one pound increments, and can be fully locked out.

Modularity: The M1 was designed to be modular for a number of reasons - for transport it fits in places that no other chair can - like the overhead bins or coat closet on an airplane (photo five). It goes into small cars - see video here.

It gives us a lot of leeway in terms of changing the individual modular parts without doing an entire redesign - an example of what this does is the way it lets us turn the M1 into an offroad chair (photos eight and nine).

By swapping out the everyday front castor wing, and replacing it with an off-road front, and changing the everyday back wheels for off-road ones, we can give the rider the choice of having an all terrain chair without having to buy (and store and transport) a whole other chair. Because of the modularity, the rider can also choose to only change out one of the modular components (like only the backs if the issue is snow, or only the front if the issue is grass).

Guarantee: LIFETIME ON THE FRAME AND CASTOR WING. And by lifetime we don't mean 5 years like some of our competitors. Photo of how confident we are in the strength of the M1 frame at photo 6 here.

(Yes, that is an M1 frame under the back wheel of my very heavy station wagon).

This is already an enormously long post, but I really want to make sure that the information out there is accurate - I'll do my best to answer any questions that you might have, and like I said, we're excited to hear any and all feedback - it's the only way for us to make sure that what we're putting out is what is needed.

[greybeard]

Hi Jeff,

Any dealers in the UK on the way?

[JAdams]

We've had a bunch of inquiries from dealers in the UK, but we want to be careful with who we bring on board - one of our philosophies is to go with quality dealers who provide great service.

Until we sign dealers, we're selling direct with a discount.

Any advice/opinion you could give on dealers in the UK would be great.

[greybeard]

JAdams, on Nov 3 2009, 03:03 PM, said:

Any advice/opinion you could give on dealers in the UK would be great.

Being so new to wheelchairs, I couldn't begin to offer advice about dealers. I'm sure there are plenty of others here who will do so.

From what I've read of your design, it has to be a winner. Good luck with it.

[wheeels]

First thing Go Canada Go.

Ok I have sat in the chair and like it I just need to wait another 3 years for my funding to kick back in to get on.

I agree with the usage of aluminum over titanium, titanium is cool but does not have enough advantages to use it.

I was not aware you tapered some of your tubes I like that.

When are you going to come out with a front ski attachment for the winter?

And when is Cervelo going to build a carbon handcycle?

One more thing the new website looks way better then the old one.

Edited by wheeels, 03 November 2009 - 07:17 PM.

[JAdams]

Thanks - we're a pretty international company already - our sales and marketing office is in Plano, TX - assembly in Toronto, Canada, prototyping in Calgary (metal), and San Diego (carbon), and our frames are welded in the Pacific Northwest.

We already have an off-road front end that is nearing the end of the development/testing phase - it should be available in 4-6 months.

You can see photos (#8 and 9) here:

http://www.marvelwhe...ategory/gallery

wheeels, on Nov 3 2009, 06:44 PM, said:

First thing Go Canada Go.

Ok I have sat in the chair and like it I just need to wait another 3 years for my funding to kick back in to get on.

I agree with the usage of aluminum over titanium, titanium is cool but does not have enough advantages to use it.

I was not aware you tapered some of your tubes I like that.

When are you going to come out with a front ski attachment for the winter?

And when is Cervelo going to build a carbon handcycle?

One more thing the new website looks way better then the old one.

[MrBump]

hey, any good for an active quad with no finger function ?
Noticed theres extra stuff to dismantle when throwin in your car ?

[silone74]

Hi would you like to donate me a chair to use I promose I would give a reveiw of how it handles every day life in my hands LOL.


Si

[JCripps]

Anyone have one of these? It's definitely in my list of possible new chairs to replace my ZRa

[Doppleganger]

Yes, I have one but I need to get it set-up correctly to make it usable.

[fredspike]

I love the look and tech. behind the chair and it seems to be a front runner for my next chair, if there is a dealer near me in that time.

The main concern that i have is how to carry a bag or back pack on the back rest. I always have something with me, and i know a lot of others to as well. I will have to carry a laptop to work everyday in the fall and I don't want to have it resting insecurely on my lap.

I know that you are working on push handles of different types. One on the more heavy duty back, and one that looks extremely odd on the normal chair and protrudes awkwardly from the back post. While these both fit the function of a push handle of sorts, they don't seem to do anything to carry a bag.

I also currently hook my arm around the push handle of my quickie GT when stopping fast or going down hill for more strength and support. While I am a T6 and I would say have good balance and strength as i Mono Ski i could imagine not being able to hook my arm around the back like that.

All in all it appears to be a great chair, i love the concept as design and what it does for the active user, i just have those few concerns.

Thanks

Josh

[S-Cyclone]

Stuart Dunne here - Founder of Cyclone.

Having just had Jeff visit the UK and have the opportunity to here first hand the reasons for designed in features of the Marvel M1, I realise that not only have we at Cyclone brought in a fabulous innovative product that will take the knocks that we throw at our chairs, but what we also have is something really special.

First of all 80% of new chair users change size within the first 24 months of leaving hospital. Jeans and Shirts are easily replaceable but a 3 Grand chair that is a bit to narrow 18 months on isn't an easy thing to replace unless your fortunate enough to have a gold bullien store.

At the presentation Jeff gave to the physio team at the UK's premier Spinal Unit - Stoke Mandeville the first comment was 'when can we have one' followed by 'or maybe two'.

My suggestion to anyone looking at the Marvel on the net is see it in the flesh. The words of a C7 quad that saw it for the first time on the day Jeff was with us was 'Wow it looks better than the picture, the picture doesn't do it justice' followed by after a summary of it's adjustability 'I don't think they forgot anything'

Call 0800 180 48 50 or log on to www.cyclonemobility.com

It is also a very unique suspension - As Jeff has said there aren't many moving products in the able world without suspension, car, bike, skateboard, scooter, tractor even an office chair so why shouldn't a wheelchair have it - as long as it is efficient which I think the Marvel is the first to perfect this.

[Texaswheelz]

JAdams, on Nov 2 2009, 10:06 PM, said:

Jeff Adams here - one of the co-founders of Marvel Wheelchairs.

There has been a bunch of conversation on these forums, so I'd like to make myself available to answer any questions that people might have on the Marvel M1.

Please let us know what you think of it. The current design of the M1 came as a result of an enormous amount of research, testing, and design review using real people who really use wheelchairs - we tried to canvass a good cross section of riders, high and low paras and high and low quads. As hard as we tried though, we know that there are going to be a lot of unique needs and requests - so we want to listen to the suggestions and the feedback, and will commit to doing everything we can to respond in the best way we can.


Price: The M1 was priced to be competitive in the market, and the price is "all in" as opposed to a base price plus options - when you compare "apples to apples", and put similar options on the other major brands in the market, the M1 is equal to or less than the competition.


Weight: The M1 is 1/2 pound heavier than a TiLite ZR with similar components, except that the M1 has full adjustability, and suspension. The specific weights of the M1 component parts (in lbs) are:

Frame set w/wing, carbon back, carbon seat and sideguards - 14.95
Rogue Wheels (loaded) - 8.1
Brakes - 1.6
Transfer handles - .6
Rogue back cushion - .35
anti-tip - 1.2 lbs
2x 1" seat spacer - .2 lbs

14.95 lbs with no wheels, 22.5 lbs all in, 26.55 lbs with a bunch of accessories.

We're confident that this weight stacks up to the competition - please remember that comparisons should be "apples to apples" to be fair - solid seat, solid back, adjustable - AND should be "real world scale" weight, NOT "published in marketing materials" weight.

Adjustability: We designed the M1 to be adjustable for a number of reasons, principally because we know first hand how difficult it is to get all those measurements right.

TI'll do my best to answer any questions that you might have, and like I said, we're excited to hear any and all feedback - it's the only way for us to make sure that what we're putting out is what is needed.

Hey Jeff, I know this thread is a few months old and I'm hoping that maybe you have it set up to receive emails when some one responds to it. If not I have your email and I'll send the questions directly to you in a couple of days, I just figure others might have the same sort of questions and would like to see answers maybe.

First off I love the chair. I love different, innovation and change, this chair hits em all. I have to decide in the next month on which chair I want to get next. Right now I'm in a ZRA and love it, best chair I've had in 20 years and not getting a ZR seems very counter productive at this point as other then replacing the wheels, casters and now needing to replace the seats sling I haven't had any issues, just those minor things that other then the seat sling will occur with any chair.

The above parts I quoted are what I'm wanting to ask about most.

First off on the price. Now that you guys have it up on SportAid, we can see a "as is" price as well as "add on" prices. This might be what keeps me from getting the chair as it is a pretty penny more then the ZR. The ZR quoted starting price is $2095, $3999 after going through my customization(minus carbon back that I currently have and would get another of) and that includes $1000 for the wheels/tires.

The Marvel on the other hand starts at $4995, not as competitive as I was hoping( I do understand the tech that went into and and that it does have suspension). After I go through the adds ons for it I hit $5624. That's going with ya'lls wheels and tires(not the same choices as on the Tilite, but not an extra $1000). I don't have any idea what the Rogue Backrest or any other rest is for the Marvel so I went with the Rogue that doesn't cost extra, although I'd have to look into it more to see what I would want. The extra for the shock air pump and the transfer bars seems like it should be included as part of the "all in" price as both are pretty much a have to have thing and other chairs have the bar running down beside the leg to take place for the transfer bars and no need for the pump.

That's just my observations on the price and am not seeing competitive pricing that I was hoping to see and unfortunately might be the deal breaker, depends on if I can get it justified.

The weight was my next observation. I've seen your screen shot and I have went to checked out a demo chair. I'm pretty sure it was the large frame, had the front foot rest attachment on, carbon side guards, brakes, spacers, back and back cushion and it felt heavier then my 18x18 ZRA with a carbon fiber back, back cushion but normal fabric seat sling. However it was heavier then what the weight of the carbon fiber seat pan would have been alone. I do realize that it could have just been a difference in how I pick it up, as I'm used to picking mine up by the bar in the back to fold the seat down while with the Marvel I was lifting it by the pole going to the seat back. I'd have to play with the demo more but I was on a limited time as they were closing 30 minutes after i got there and we spent the first 10 min looking transfer bars that they couldn't find.

I got to roll around the show room for about 10 minutes, do some wheelies...etc, but couldn't really get much feel for it from that. Tires where half flat, COG wasn't set correctly and they didn't change any of the measurements other then the length/width of seat. I really want to like the Marvel and get a Marvel, but the price might kill me and I still haven't had any one that can convince me that I will be better off then my Ti that I have had no problems with.

[Trinity]

I have heard a rumour that Marvel have gone into receivership, not sure what that means for them and their product

[adam_downunder]

Trinity, on Apr 15 2010, 05:58 AM, said:

I have heard a rumour that Marvel have gone into receivership, not sure what that means for them and their product

There is some restructuring going on at the moment and all should be running and fine within the next 2 to 3 weeks.

@Texas... you may find that a local dealer can do a better price for you.

p.s. Anyone in Australia interested, please get in touch with me... adam@ridewheelchairs.com (shameless plug!)

[Doppleganger]

adam_downunder, on Apr 15 2010, 07:37 AM, said:

There is some restructuring going on at the moment and all should be running and fine within the next 2 to 3 weeks.

It might take a little longer ...

Cervelo (the cycling company that initially funded Marvel) took full control & ownership of Marvel this week and Jeff and Christian are no longer officially affiliated with the chair or Cervelo.
Cervelo is going to continue to produce the Marvel and honor the warranties, parts etc on existing chairs.

More info: http://sci.rutgers.e...ad.php?t=134499

[adam_downunder]

Yes this is right. I've been told to expect that they will be taking orders by mid to late this week and recommencing manufacturing in 1-2 weeks from then.

[Trinity]

Doppleganger, on May 3 2010, 11:17 AM, said:

adam_downunder, on Apr 15 2010, 07:37 AM, said:

There is some restructuring going on at the moment and all should be running and fine within the next 2 to 3 weeks.

It might take a little longer ...

Cervelo (the cycling company that initially funded Marvel) took full control & ownership of Marvel this week and Jeff and Christian are no longer officially affiliated with the chair or Cervelo.
Cervelo is going to continue to produce the Marvel and honor the warranties, parts etc on existing chairs.

More info: http://sci.rutgers.e...ad.php?t=134499

Wow it sounds like they have been royally screwed by Cervelo. Shame, in the end it's usually the little guys who lose.

[adam_downunder]

Going by what has been said in that thread over at CareCure it does appear that way. But I am led to believe that that is not the complete story, and that in fact instead of just cutting their losses and letting the Marvel M1 vanish, they are right behind the product and continuing on with it.

As I watched that thread evolve over the last couple of days I've been reminded about one of those golden truths of the internet.... "Anybody can write anything online!"

[Texaswheelz]

That they can, but regardless, the guys in chairs who came up with the idea, the work, the innovation of the Marvel chair are no longer associated with it. To believe that they happily left that behind would be naive.

[adam_downunder]

Texaswheelz, on May 4 2010, 12:46 AM, said:

That they can, but regardless, the guys in chairs who came up with the idea, the work, the innovation of the Marvel chair are no longer associated with it. To believe that they happily left that behind would be naive.

Absolutely, I totally agree. They certainly would have been unhappy about the outcome. It's just a bad situation, and I can appreciate both sides point of view.

From Jeff and Christian's side I can understand that their brainchild has been taken from them. Their design and work is no longer theirs, and I can certainly appreciate their discontent.

On the other side I can understand that the Cervelo partners got tired of seeing their cash go to waste. They paid for this chair and without their backing I don't think we would be seeing the great product we have today, or certainly not in it's current form. So again, I can appreciate their perspective of "well we paid for it, it's ours".

I'm just glad that out of this bad situation we still have this great product available, and that it hasn't been lost forever.

[Texaswheelz]

Maybe so, but it's a product I won't use now. By keeping Jeff and Christian on, it wouldn't have put Cervelo out anything and in the long run I think it would have helped to sell many more chairs. These guys loved their product, stood behind it and were the biggest reason that people bought it, that's now gone.

It's sort of like the bakery my wife and I own. We can hire some one to work in it, they can hand out the cupcakes, cookies..etc. that people buy and take their money. But to these people it's just a job, a paycheck so they can make some money, they have no love or care for it. However when I work, it's my lively hood, I don't just take their money and hand them something I make a sell, I sell us, I sell our business, I sell our product I try to make an impression on the customers so that they come back, so that they remember us, so that they tell others who will then come in also. I do a good job of it, the people we hired and had working for us before I took over didn't. Our business is making 3-4x what it was over the last two months that I've solely worked the front of the shop.

Cervelo has a wheelchair to sell, that's it, Jeff and Christian had a passion to sell, the same wheelchair as Cervelo now has, but also they sold us on them, two guys with a idea for making a better chair for not just us but for them also, they sold us on them and that is something Cervelo won't have.

[wheeels]

To me it looks like Cervelo wants out, they have no real reason to push out the two guys and keep running with a product that is loosing money that I can tell.

So they called in there loans, and my guess is that they are trying to restructure to sell the chair and its designs to another wheelchair manufacture.

Cervelo is a major bike manufacture, they make some amazing bikes but even there top of the line bike is most likely more profitable for them then a wheelchair

I like the innovation of the M1, the only thing negative I can say about it is its weight, I hope the two guys can get things together and come up with something even more revolutionary.

[Texaswheelz]

weight wasn't a killer for me, considering it had a suspension, solid seat pan, solid fenders and is still competitive with the other light weights. Hell other then my current ZRA it would be the lightest chair of the other 6 I've had by 10 lbs or more.

[chickadee]

Wow, it's hard to hear about this chair manufacturer that I've been watching get nailed (seemingly in the teeth; hopefully not as badly as it sounds) by a fantastic bike manufacturer - two bikes of theirs I used to own and love.

I've been so stunned, from an industrial design (and consumate tinkerer) standpoint, at not only the creativity, but the audacity for which these guys just went for it. I read a few months ago in these forums somewheres about how someone thought that the main character in Avatar was using a wheelchair that hadn't been redesigned for the future that the movie was set within. This is one step closer to the 'future'. This is the chair that dude should have been rolling around in.

I've dealt with just about every type of mobility device in a short period of time - crappy old lady walkers, forearm crutches of every blush, and four chairs - the world's most beat-up rehab Quickie, a secondhand Colours Boing, a TiLite ZRA I call my Tank, and the insurance battle-won Colours Razorblade. The Quickie hurt my screwed up nerves that were being un-numbed by getting off nasty meds, plus it really was a piece of shit. I couldn't tolerate using it anymore, especially after finding out how much of an insurance battle it was going to be getting a decent set of wheels. Along came the Boing, which was one of the softest, most gentle rides on my back - it was like having my butt being cradled by angels. Sure, it was heavy - really heavy - but there was a great tradeoff. But - one day, I snapped the frame. Along came the ZRA, which saw me through my first 'real' Minnesota winter. I cannot say enough for this chair - the titanium frame, literally, is a tank. It gets through what I chuck at it (come hell or feet of snow), and it's light and good looking. Of course, after I get the ZRA, my RazorBlade comes in (finally!), just in time for crappy mid-winter weather. The RazorBlade, though, is my show-stopper. Cherry-red, with nice grey patterned upholstery. Badass. The one I call my 'F**k Me Chair', after the 4" Italian stilletos that are taking an extended break in my closet.

What does all that learning from the other chairs mean for the Marvel setup from me? 1. It's not a piece of crap. 2. The suspension and design is new and appealing. 3. It looks like it could handle itself, and be light. 4. Damn, it looks fine.

What is depressing, of course, is that price tag personally. Being as how I've had to repurchase or reconfigure a large percentage of my life in the last year, including needing to buy a new car, and move to a new house. I try to buy (or deal with horrid insurance policy bureaucracy) the best my money can. This chair is out of reach in that regard. However - new technology like this has me Pavlovian-salivating. Wouldn't it be great that if, like fancy TVs or computers, this sort of chair came into the stratosphere of normal. And these guys were pushed out some new, revolutionary ideas.

And Cervelo, my former cycling love, would be helping front this fantastic movement of changing technology.

I have my fingers crossed, but I'm a realist. At the very least, the idea is out there. And if the Marvel guys are bitter or have been slighted in any way, at least they should know that they pushed wheelchair design even further forward.

Edited by chickadee, 05 May 2010 - 03:29 AM.

[TheGarageFlower]

Not sure if it means anything but the Marvel web site is back up.