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Skis And Outriggers For Monoski? -- East Coast Hardpack




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9 replies to this topic

#1 whippersnapper

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 08:48 PM

Howdy, I'm back into sitskiing after 16 year hiatus. I ski at a midwestern hill (Perfect North Slopes, Indiana) in their adaptive program. I ski on their new Freedom Factory RPC, but it's mounted on 170cm K2s and gets very squirrelly at speed in icy hardpack and crud. I want to get a ski for them and me to use that tracks better. Last year I used a Mogul Master monoski there with an absurdly-forward-mounted 192 Atomic GS ski that tracked better, though all other things were worse. I'm a hefty 180 lbs and getting no lighter, C-7 incomplete para, effectively T4 complete. Last year's (Mogul Master) videos below. It was my second time out since monoskiing Alpine Meadows as a weak intermediate in about 1992:

http://www.youtube.c...ippersnappertgr

The new setup is about right, I'm a *foot* farther back (correct balance) on a superior suspension. But at cruising speed (20-30 mph is my favorite zone, an accurate range) the little K2 just jumps and wiggles too much--tiny turn radius. It makes me yearn for my antediluvian 204cm Olin MK5s from pre-injury days in 1980. And I like fast, moderately steep cruising anyway. Andy, I think you had Bro 195 in Aspen, now it's on sale... Your thoughts?

I would also appreciate opinions on some other issues.

1) On eastern, stale, manmade "snow," the outriggers' brakes will just bounce the second you have speed. I set the brake angle to minimum, actually removing the screw, so that the outriggers *steer* or skid, not bounce. "Braking" is fine for powder or soft western pack, but utterly useless on ice or crud.

2) My shoulders have serious torquing problems (left rotator cuff lately), so I do much better with short-adjusted outriggers. I want to set them super short, actually just one inch shorter than my current setting which is the shortest setting. The reason is to enable me to put more weight on them for more turning and balancing force. The last, short setting really helped. I expect that one inch less still won't hinder my forward reaching. How do you set your outriggers? Note, I've been off the hill for a month because of shoulder problem--I hope to ski again this year; I only got out twice this season so far (3 illnesses, etc.).

Thanks to all, especially to Andy (just got my Die Living hoodies!)

Edited by whippersnapper, 21 February 2010 - 09:00 PM.


#2 qman

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 03:49 AM

have you any more info on the ski you are on. the K2,
I find it funny when people just state the brand as every brand has a huge range of skis with infinite differences between them.

generally speaking i would say that stiffer skis are better for sit skis particularly torsional stiffness,

i would also say that stiffness and side cut of the ski are more importance than length. ;-)

if you were on a GS racing ski of 170 you would be sweet. and they will edge really well on hard pack.

so definetly look around for some stiff GS type skis for hard pack from 170cm to 180cm. with a turn radius between 18m and 24m.

in soft snow wider skis are great.

outriggers are pretty personal but a rough rule of thumb is to have your elbows at right angles when sitting on flat ground with your elbow up and you out riggers on the ground.

#3 whippersnapper

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 06:33 PM

have you any more info on the ski you are on. the K2,
I find it funny when people just state the brand as every brand has a huge range of skis with infinite differences between them.
generally speaking i would say that stiffer skis are better for sit skis particularly torsional stiffness,
i would also say that stiffness and side cut of the ski are more importance than length. ;-)
if you were on a GS racing ski of 170 you would be sweet. and they will edge really well on hard pack.
so definetly look around for some stiff GS type skis for hard pack from 170cm to 180cm. with a turn radius between 18m and 24m.
in soft snow wider skis are great.
outriggers are pretty personal but a rough rule of thumb is to have your elbows at right angles when sitting on flat ground with your elbow up and you out riggers on the ground.

Thank you qman, very helpful. I actually can't reach anyone at the program now, the supervisor has been in California for 3 weeks and nobody else picks up the phone--a small operation. They are definitely not racing skis, I think they are basic novice skis bought in bulk by the resort for rental, etc. They are new but have zero graphics save a model name which I just don't remember--I would have stated it. I don't know the turn radius but it's certainly well under 18m--I'm thinking around 12m or so. The rather beat-up Atomic GS ski under last year's monoski (now all gone with their teacher/owner) had a 27m radius.

Your recommendations on skis and outriggers make a lot of sense. Given the weight that yours truly + monoski place on the ski, a very stiff ski is surely in order, and I expect that 18-24m would work well. I'm especially partial to the bigger radii because as a high-level para, I correct slowly, and need the ski to be stable long enough for me to correct.

Thanks again for your help!

Edited by whippersnapper, 22 February 2010 - 06:34 PM.


#4 qman

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 03:09 AM

just checked out your video on youtube, OMG that binding is mounted way way way to far forward and would be almost impossible to turn on the edge. i mounted one ski 5 cm to far forward and didnt enjoy it so i cant imagine a ski mounted 30cm to far forward being very skiable.

i skied on program equipment for the first 10 days or so and it gets really frustrating having to deal with changed equipment and different skis etc.

so if you know you are going to keep at it it is a really good idea to get your own. you will learn faster and enjoy it more.

IMHO most hire type skis would be too noodley for a sit ski and wash out.

good luck.

BTW, i have had heaps of luck getting free skis from shops and distributors where the other of the pair has been broken, so ask around you will be surprised.

#5 whippersnapper

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 12:55 AM

just checked out your video on youtube, OMG that binding is mounted way way way to far forward and would be almost impossible to turn on the edge. i mounted one ski 5 cm to far forward and didnt enjoy it so i cant imagine a ski mounted 30cm to far forward being very skiable.

i skied on program equipment for the first 10 days or so and it gets really frustrating having to deal with changed equipment and different skis etc.

so if you know you are going to keep at it it is a really good idea to get your own. you will learn faster and enjoy it more.

IMHO most hire type skis would be too noodley for a sit ski and wash out.

good luck.

BTW, i have had heaps of luck getting free skis from shops and distributors where the other of the pair has been broken, so ask around you will be surprised.

I really appreciate your feedback on all these fronts. You probably saw this response on youtube but I'll repeat it here:

"Hey qman, over a foot! It was only my 2nd time out in 16 years, so I wasn't scrutinizing the setup. After seeing the videos I said that cannot be right. You can imagine It was murder to get the ski out of a turn. Given that rigging, I think I did pretty well. That was the last day of last season. The new sitskis (RPCs) are mounted correctly. My first day on the new gear this season I skied much better and faster. My 2nd day out, two weeks later, was crashy, I was very weak from 3(!) illnesses and fought too-long-adjusted outriggers. I haven't been out since, hope to get runs before the season ends in about a month. 6 hours skiing in two seasons, sigh."

Above I should clarify, "...murder to get the ski out of a turn," I meant "murder to exit the the turn [fishtailing]." Your idea of getting spares from half a trashed pair is great, I'll try that. My local hill's adaptive program is new, on it's 3rd year, and they really work hard to help me out. The parent company paid for 3 fully-equipped RPCs (1 big, 1 medium, and a junior), so they are on board. The RPC is okay but a little loose even with all belts cinched. The ski would be fine as a normal ski, but as you say is noodley with ~220lbs atop. It has enough pop-back force, but once it's on edge it over-rockers, i.e. digs deep then bounces out instead of carving.
So, both greater stiffness and radius should be the ticket. I'm really thinking of getting my own setup, but got to see whether I can actually ski again...

I saw some of your youtube vids and posts here--fine skiing and wow, that's nice open terrain in NZ. I'd hoped to go to my old haunt of Jackson to ski this season, but the shoulder says no way : ( . I also saw you were injured paragliding or something. I busted up hang gliding in 1980 at age 22.
Best, Sam

#6 COOL Mobility

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 12:54 AM

I'm an ex-hang glider - crashed in '77 and returned to skiing in'88 as a C6 complete quad in a bi-ski (Australia design I helped create subsequent versions).

I was VP of our State Disabled Ski club and would contact ski shops who always were happy to give us a boot load (I drive a SAAB so that's a lot of skis) of skis and single bindings. They hang onto them but skis are in sets so people who break one don't want a non perfect matched ski. We got some great current gear along with old crap we cut tips off for out riggers.

Ski shops are always interested to clear out old skis that are too good to throw away but in reality useless to them. Give them a try and test a batch of skis. Try the new broad but shorter skis too as you may find them great to run on or carve but is personal preference.

Happy Skiing.

#7 whippersnapper

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 11:30 PM

Hey qman and Cool, finally got up video of my 3rd (=last) day of skiing this season. All in all it was better. Update: the K2 ski was basically a slalom with 14m radius, just too tight for me to take at speed. CoG was about right, perhaps a cm or two forward of ideal. I need to carve cleanly so that if I make an error starting a turn, I have more time to recover; a longer (like 2x) radius should help that. Also, the mucky snow bounced me around a lot, I need to play with the suspension, and hope the new longer ski (Superbro 195) will help:

Superbro 195s

My guess about the outriggers paid off. With the shortest reach, I could apply more more force to the surface without so much torque on my shoulders. The shoulders actually felt better after skiing than before. Still, am MRI showed that I have a 50% tear in my left rotator cuff, so I'll keep an eye on it. Apologies for sucky video, all we could use was a handheld Flip Mino HD. Lots of falls on this day in March, but fun was had:


Edited by whippersnapper, 12 April 2010 - 11:37 PM.


#8 qman

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 02:34 AM

nice one, looking really good.

try to extend the leading outrigger further down slope as it will cause the edge to rock over and carve more. really try to reach that out rigger out, but your are doing really well for a higher level para/tetra.
as you get better you will lift the outside outrigger off the snow a little.


That mounting is way way better than the other one.

Killing it. ;-)

#9 whippersnapper

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 04:16 PM

nice one, looking really good.
try to extend the leading outrigger further down slope as it will cause the edge to rock over and carve more. really try to reach that out rigger out, but your are doing really well for a higher level para/tetra.
as you get better you will lift the outside outrigger off the snow a little.
That mounting is way way better than the other one.
Killing it. ;-)

Thanks q! I expect to get far more mileage next season and will try out your suggestions, I expect they'll be very helpful. This year I was sick and injured most of the season, but I've learned a lot on how to stay healthier on and off the hill. Hey, your season's just starting...looking forward to more of your vids.
Regards

Edited by whippersnapper, 13 April 2010 - 04:20 PM.


#10 qman

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 12:41 AM

yeah, will be june b4 i get a ski but looking forward to it,

will try and get some more video


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