42 replies to this topic

[Rachel75]

Hi all,

Can anyone help with the following re disciplining a young toddler...18 months plus...just want to get some tricks up my sleeve for when 'm going to need them...

I am a bit concerned about the discipline aspect of parenting from a wheelchair as a C5/6. I manage pretty well on my own in the day when my little girl is in nursery, apart from I need someone to get me up . The rest of the time, we have somebody here all day. The PA we have has been here since just before Amelie was born and our relationship is a bit up and down as she isn't the brightest of people and doesn't have/isn't around other kids outside of her job. Mostly it's fine as I call the shots but she is quite a negative person generally and I find that hard to deal with as there's always a lot going on and constantly having to deal with someone else's negativity can be really draining.  Anyway, I believe in my role as Mummy, I need to find ways of disciplining my little girl myself as much as possible rather than handing the execution out to an able bodied PA who isn't her Mummy. Generally, as long as I keep her busy, she is pretty good but I know there will be times before long when discipline will be the order of the day and if at all possible, I want to be the one dishing it out. So any old hands out there, I would love to hear from you on your unconventional take on this and how you think it worked for you. Unfortunately, I'm not great at the whole intonation with the voice thing, although I am better than I used to be. I have also witnessed that she now knows if we are alone together, I am physically not capable of intervening without the help of a 2nd party. Joy!!  

Anyway, anyone with experience/takes on unconventional discipline would be really helpful right now. Hope to hear from some of you soon.

Many thanks,

Rachel

[mellowgator]

hi rachel,

i'm a c6-7 quad and my daughters are now 15 and 17. the way i disciplined them was to give them time outs when they misbehaved. they had to sit in a desiginated spot (perhaps her playpen)for 5 minutes. it does get tedious but it works.

now that they are older i restrict them and take away their phone and laptop. talk about torture! it really works.

good luck!

mellowgator

Edited by mellowgator, 23 November 2010 - 10:57 PM.

[rue2you]

I think consistency is the hardest thing - but it is what works. I don't know if it is child-training as much as it is parent training. If you tell her not to touch something, then don't move it out of her way so she won't. You sit there with her until she obeys what you say. If she touches, then do whatever is the penalty (like timeout in her play pen or high chair like Mellow said). Then, after a few minutes, get her out, pretend you don't see her, and see if she touches again. If she does, immediately do it again. It will be very consuming on you in the first stages, but once she realizes that you are the authority and NOTHING will pass your ever watching eye, she will learn to take you seriously. Not that she won't keep testing you - she will, because that is part of growing up and finding your boundaries - but when you give her the answer about it, you will avoid a lot of fights. This is just an example, but be sure to be consistent. I really think that is the biggest battle. When my children get to where I am aggravated at them because of their slow obedience, then I take a long look in the mirror because I know where the problem is! Good luck!!

[Tetracyclone]

Rachel, are people missing the point here? Are you physically incapable of getting the girl into her playpen?

[greybeard]

Duct tape

[rue2you]

Tetra - you may be right about her not being able to get her in a playpen. I think I missed the "second party" part.

Rachel, I think even if someone is your hands, the principal is the same. You just be the one to say the words and "put your foot down". There are times that I can't physically reach where my little one will try to hide to get out of trouble (like between the fridge and the wall). I will ask one of my older children to come to me, I will tell the little one that I want them to come out to me, when they won't, I tell the sibling to reach them and hand me the child. Then, I continue on with my discipline. Even if your "second" has to put her in timeout, you could still be the voice and the consistent momma. It is better the younger they learn.

[stillgotswag]

greybeard, on 24 November 2010 - 12:21 AM, said:

Duct tape

[Tetracyclone]

This suggestion will prove controversial, but my imagination wanders to using an electronic dog control device.

If someone has one, put it on yourself and tell us how obnoxious the sensation is. Clearly the voltage is already calibrated to a small animal (toddler). I like the idea, as I have watched my friends dog become eagerly compliant, but by all means, let the beatings begin.

[tyvin]

First off I would clear up the concern you have with an inept aid. Kids are like sponges and will model all behavior good and bad so if your child is around the what you say is a not too bright controversial aid the kid will definitely suffer from it.

As far as maintaining limits and goals positive reinforcement is a good aid. Also time out is an excellent way to discipline without hitting the child. I used time outs with my kids but really can't remember using it that often. As has been said you can tell them not to touch something but if you don't' do your part and put it up then the child is going to touch it.

At the stage your child is in right now everything is in the mouth. It's not a good idea to discourage this behaviour because that's how they learn so child proof your home. Make the home kid friendly. It was your choice to have the child so let's let them grow in a positive environment meant for their safety.

Years ago I use to teach new mothers how to child prood their homes and I got many of them saying that they felt they didn't have to move things that the toddler would have to learn not to touch. Well you can go that route if you want lots of hardship. Child proof the house and set limits on safe things so that the child learns behavior you want to instill in her in a safe way.

Please don't use a shock collar on your child; very bad idea. There are many motion sensor devices that can be utilized and in the end you need to have the house secure to the point where the child cannot get out. Child proof the door handles and any windows that can open. This goes hand in hand with child proofing your home.

[Apparelyzed]

Tetracyclone, on 24 November 2010 - 02:44 AM, said:

This suggestion will prove controversial, but my imagination wanders to using an electronic dog control device.

If someone has one, put it on yourself and tell us how obnoxious the sensation is. Clearly the voltage is already calibrated to a small animal (toddler). I like the idea, as I have watched my friends dog become eagerly compliant, but by all means, let the beatings begin.

Well, you certainly wouldn't have any trouble with your child misbehaving if you used the above method, as she'd be taken into care!

We installed consequences into Charlotte very early, misbehave, and there's no milk at bedtime. We also use the count to three rule, and if she doesn't comply, then there are consequencies.

You have to be strict, or it won't work.

The above rules still work, although we get a bit of backchat, but then she is 11 now!

Simon

[jenny407]

Rachel, although obiously as an AB mom, I can't really answer part of your question - allow me to give my opinion.

tyvin's advice would be the one I whole-heartedly support. Absolutely, well said, tyvin!

Tetra - sorry, this makes me cringe. Was that a joke? OMG. Never!

rue - well, pretty tough. I would never put an 18-month-old child into that kind of 'temptation'. Just my view. I do respect yours is yours. With six kids in the house - perhaps you have to be stricter than me.

Positive re-enforcement is very important, consequences (yes - like Simon and mellow said - no milk, timeout ... and it's YOU who says so, even if somebody else does it), and very much, with my own kids (now 14 and 20): just TALKING! I do find it's surprising how important that is for children, small ones too, a good relationship with their parents, being accepted and praised. Not talking endlessly, but talking clearly. "I don't want that - stop!" "This makes me angry - stop!" "That is dangerous - don't!" "If you do that ..." Together with consistent behaviour, yes some punishment (never corporal, please!), it does work. So well. And praise, praise, love ... affection.

There is bound to be a short time when children are these 'terrible twos' (in English? "Trotzphase", in German, "phase of defiance"). It passes. Be clear and don't forget your daily dose of ?? (weed, valium, valerian ... tea ... relaxing music ... whatever) to calm you down.

(My crazy kids, so difficult and temperamental at times - how well it works today - touch wood!! - mostly by talking. I started talking and explaining when they were babies - much to some of my friends' surprise, BTW.)


Rachel - good luck! Enjoy your kid.

Edited by jenny407, 24 November 2010 - 09:34 AM.

[dangerousdave]

Cable ties (+ ductape)

[Tetracyclone]

jenny407, on 24 November 2010 - 09:32 AM, said:

Tetra - sorry, this makes me cringe. Was that a joke? OMG. Never!

Mostly, but I still want to put one of those collars on myself to find out what they do. Maybe PETA members should all wear them to get themselves in the proper mood for their politics.

[greybeard]

Tetracyclone, on 24 November 2010 - 12:27 PM, said:

jenny407, on 24 November 2010 - 09:32 AM, said:

Tetra - sorry, this makes me cringe. Was that a joke? OMG. Never!

Mostly, but I still want to put one of those collars on myself to find out what they do.

Tens machine.

[rue2you]

Yes, Jenny, I am probably more on the strict side than on the lenient side. One, I do have a lot of children and if they are all out of hand....whew! Two, it is very important to me that my children obey what I say. I am not a tyrant nor a dictator, I love them to death, we have a wonderful time of fun and fellowship together, but when I give direction, I want obeyed. To me, this will help them all through life - there are rules everywhere you go, so you might as well get used to the idea that someone will always be giving rules that will have to be followed (whether that is in the workplace, driving, etc). I guess they don't have to follow the rules but their will be sure consequences that will no doubt lead to some unhappiness. If they can learn that young, that is a life lesson.

As far as the 18 month old - no, I would not "set up" a scenario to teach them to obey, however, I have found I have never needed to set one up - they happen plenty naturally! For example, my baby is 16 months old. I sit in my comfy chair to work on my laptop. It is the perfect height for him to walk up to my knees and slap on the keyboard and slam the screen down. So, should I work with the laptop above my head? Sit in my wheelchair at a table and not in my comfy chair? No. I need to be out of my chair for times and I need for my baby not to break my expensive electronic. So, we had two days where he really tested me. Every single time he would touch my laptop (anywhere!), I would take his hand, put it to his side and say very firmly (which is not the tone I normally speak in and that is a whole other point in itself)"NO!!" He would cry like I had just killed him, I would go back to work and ignore him (but watch him out of the corner of my eye) and he would look at me and slowly take one finger and try to touch it. To say he did not understand what he was doing would be the understatement of the year! As soon as that fingertip would touch the laptop, I would again take his hand, put it to his side and say "NO!!" He would then cry again. We did this over and over and over (well, every time he came over to me). The first time that he came up to me and looked at me with the look that he wanted to touch but did not raise his finger I shouted "GOOD BOY!!!!" and we hugged and kissed over and over. Now, this battle happened a couple of months ago when he was about 14 months old and now, when he comes up to me, he doesn't even pay attention to the laptop. Sometimes if he is sitting with me and I am showing him a cartoon or something, he will reach out to the screen to touch the character. I will just gently say "No, no, don't touch" and he immediately puts his hand down.

It works for us - that's all I know but I am no expert.

[jenny407]

dangerousdave, on 24 November 2010 - 10:20 AM, said:

Cable ties (+ ductape)

What else to be expected from that guy! Ties and duct tape for yourself!

Tetracyclone, on 24 November 2010 - 12:27 PM, said:

Mostly, but I still want to put one of those collars on myself to find out what they do. Maybe PETA members should all wear them to get themselves in the proper mood for their politics.

Aha, reassuring. One never knows ...

rue2you, on 24 November 2010 - 02:32 PM, said:

Yes, Jenny, I am probably more on the strict side than on the lenient side. (...)

rue, thanks for the clarification. You do explain a similar procedure to what I did.

The question Rachel asked was (I take it) how SHE can do it. So - similar answer, Rachel: a lot can be done with your tone of voice - and with positive encouragement.

Not all. I seem to remember it was about 6 months ... difficult phase. Afterwards, talking was enough.

I do remember a scene. My daughter (VERY temperamental) was about 2 or 3 years old. She had to be given eye medicine (antibiotics), and she hated this and used to run away, us chasing her throughout the living room. She had to get that medicine at noon from my mum - and she did understand perfectly well (when I explained) that grandma CAN'T run after her! So with her grandma, she would be very quiet and orderly, keeping still - and keep having us chase her ... Children - at a certain point - do understand. Not always - but often.

mellow: If you happen to read this - some more practical concrete advice, if the child is younger? I know you managed very well.

[dangerousdave]

Put a collar on.............Jen, Smiley, and all the rest of the ladies
What do you mean, not that type of collar
Cant a guy have any fun

[mellowgator]

rachel,

i had nannies as well. i had a couple of older women who scared the shit out of me. i eventually got rid of them and found a fun young nanny who the girls loved and obeyed. it does make a difference in who you hire.

the rules should be spelled our for the child as well as the nanny. if the child disobeyed they should be punished conversly good behavior was always rewarded. if they were good they'd get to go to the zoo or we'd make cookies. or some other fun activity.

if i was alone with the kids. i had a belt that i attached to them with a tetter. i would take them out like that. usually the youngest would sit on my lap and the older would walk beside me tettered. i was lucky the girls were well behaved. but i got it in there heads early that they had to listen to me. the only time i ever spanked was when one tried to run away from me. that didn't fly in my house.

so if the child is bad and needs disclipine either you or the caregiver should put the child in a safe place for time out. do it everytime and reward the good. also get a fun caregiver. you don't want someone negative around your children. it's not fair to any of you.

mellowgator

[Ches]

I use the time out method w/ my niece.. She's pretty well bahaved but at times those hormones get the best of her. Since I cant pick her up n put her in a designated time-out space I typically just explain to her why that's not ok and basically give her the option to stop or not. If she picks the latter than we move to "compromise" and a little logic.. granted shes almost 3 not 18 months.. She knows her options are to be bad/ugly/mean then go sit in time out by her lonesome or to "be cool"- as we call it- then she can have fun with me, her peeps.. whoever. Kids are all about good times.

And yeah consistency is critical, for better or worse. My lil sidekick is at the age when positive reinforcement is pratically all she craves. Embellish on the good stuff and all that trouble wont seem nearly as fun to them.

Edited by Ches, 24 November 2010 - 07:45 PM.

[jenny407]

mellowgator, on 24 November 2010 - 03:59 PM, said:

also get a fun caregiver. you don't want someone negative around your children. it's not fair to any of you.

Thanks, Karen, for the detailed answer.
Rachel, I also wondered if you do need to have such a negative person around you. I didn't want to mention it as I don't know how easy it is to find a good caregiver. Perhaps you should really try to find a more positive one. Life should be as much fun and friendliness as we can get, shouldn't it? Good luck!

[HiltonP]

I am amazed at the pussy-footing which takes place around the raising of children these days. This business of bargaining with a child, and the use of rewards for good behaviour, and doing whatever it takes to keep the child content. We’re taking the “me me me” generation to another level of insanity.

At the risk of sounding like an old fart (which I’m not) in my day if we (I speak for me and my peers of the time) were naughty, disobedient, or rude we received one swift clip behind the ear. Our parents never had to repeat an instruction or directive. We just listened. None of us ever debated with our parents over what we were going to wear, or eat, or do, or not do. At the same time there was never anything cruel, painful or humiliating about our discipline, it was simple, short and sharp.

Perhaps too much of the good life led us to allow standards of discipline to slip, and it somehow became fashionable to "give your children the freedom to express themselves". That expression has manifested itself in the form of teenagers who are completely self absorbed, appear to only be able to communicate via a handheld device, and who, when forced to, cannot complete a spoken sentence without using the word "like".

As strange as this may sound I believe that much of our current economic woes lie in the upbringing of recent generations. The building blocks for the mindsets, behaviours, and values which we see today were laid down as children. They are a species which thinks only of itself and its short term satisfaction. We've bred a generation which wants to earn, spend and have benefits, but does not want to get their hands dirty, or work up a sweat, whilst doing so. The soft nations who used soft psychology orientated child development no longer appear to be able to do labour, make anything, or build anything. This is now being done by other, tougher, nations who worry less about their state of mind and more about earning a living.

I cannot help but think that we will all be paying a price in the future for the manner in which this new generation is being raised. We have something of an insight into it here in SA, where the 30-somethings have emigrated to foreign shores, leaving their parents behind. Speak to a manager of any of the hundreds of retirement homes here and they will tell you that one of their biggest challenges is dealing with parents who have effectively been abandoned by their offspring. The kids of those emigrated 30-somethings, the ADHD generation, are even more cold hearted in their approach to life. In 20+ years time these self centred beasts are going to supposedly be our new employers, breadwinners, lawmakers, voters, etc. Heaven help us . . .

Of course none of this really helps the original poster and her enquiry, although I can't help think that the dog collar is one helluva good idea! . . .

So I’ll just hop off this podium, get my hat, coat, and I’m outta here . . .

Edited by HiltonP, 25 November 2010 - 03:21 PM.

[dangerousdave]

Right on Hilton - out with the whips, cuffs, and dungeon key
But if the little buggers are like i was, they will enjoy the whipping, got keys to the cuffs, and know all the exit stratageys for getting out the basement

[jenny407]

My Goodness.

Ignoring DD and his questionable joys ...

.... Hilton, much as I often agree with you - what's up? Do you really never ever meet hard-working, gentle, friendly, helpful youngsters these days?

Well, while part of what you write may be true, I strongly disagree with the general idea. Sorry, different point of view, different experience ... I do find that many youngsters turn into wonderful people when they are given an education based on love and appreciation. This does not mean no rules and tasks, but certainly a positive attitude and less punishment. As far as I remember, nearly every single one of the above posts stresses the importance of consistency and rules. It's just the way how to enforce discipline and how much that differs.

Perhaps it's just our focus which is different (like with rue), not so much the actual way we do it. I don't know - you don't have kids. My own father (who died long ago, older generation) shared my attitude - respect for your children - and believe me, I do not see my childhood as a spoilt one. Long story - leading off topic even more.

I really think this would take long debating - this posting is too short and one-sided to get to the depth of the matter. We Germans (who like serious debating) have been discussing this topic endlessly - some of my friends would agree with you. A few glasses of German beer in a pub some day, Hilton, to discuss it in detail? About 5 hours should be sufficient ...

Anyway - this is off topic.

Edited by jenny407, 25 November 2010 - 05:04 PM.

[dangerousdave]

The only nice speaking friendly youngsters i know jen - are trying to pick your pocket

[HiltonP]

dangerousdave, on 25 November 2010 - 03:56 PM, said:

The only nice speaking friendly youngsters i know jen - are trying to pick your pocket

. . .

jenny407, on 25 November 2010 - 03:36 PM, said:

A few glasses of German beer in a pub some day, Hilton, to discuss it in detail? About 5 hours should be sufficient ...

. . .

[jenny407]

HiltonP, on 25 November 2010 - 04:59 PM, said:

jenny407, on 25 November 2010 - 03:36 PM, said:

A few glasses of German beer in a pub some day, Hilton, to discuss it in detail? About 5 hours should be sufficient ...

. . .

We would make a good debating club, Hilton - probably you winning in the end. When I was about 15, I was told by my parson: "I do suspect you just argue now for argument's sake." Made me a bit shyer, actually. Sure you got a point ---- ME TOO.

[greybeard]

jenny407, on 25 November 2010 - 03:36 PM, said:

I strongly disagree with the general idea.

That's because you are part of the problem. Not you personally, but teachers and teaching methods that are currently employed. You are a product of parents from the "progressive generation" so naturally you accept, without question, that their style of parenting was the correct (and only) way it should be done. You have been indoctrinated by the idea that you must respect your charges and not hurt their tender feelings. You are terrified of being sued by an angry parent who insists that you were heavy handed with his/her little angel could never do wrong. (If you do not have this fear, I guarantee that your employers do.) God forbid that you might actually have touched one of them!!

You may be imposing rules and tasks on the kids you teach, but the fact remains that many, many kids grow into young adults who have no respect for any authority, their elders, or the rules they are required to obey outside of the academic environment. There is something very, very wrong with the system that produces youngsters like these.

What is even more worrying is that the vast majority of teachers and parents see nothing wrong with the way they are performing, but see everything wrong with instilling discipline that is not based on reward, but which makes kids do as they have been told simply because they have been instructed by an authority figure.

Quote

Anyway - this is off topic.

Not so. It is very much on topic.

Excellent post HiltonP. Right on the button.

[jenny407]

greybeard:
So you think it's not off topic? I'll go on then.
No, I don't mind your views on teachers as stated above. Neither do I agree fully. There's always a grain of truth in what you say, sure. But only a grain, I'd say.

No, in fact, I personally - me! - didn't get those ideas from the baby boom generation, the post 1968 generation. It was my father (born in 1906, truly - he was relatively old at the time I was born) who held those views. Revolutionary, modern for his time. It was pre-1968 that he thought so. Not indoctrinated by anybody - my father did think for himself, from his own experiences.

My father said, at my birth: "Look at this baby. A human being from the first second." Meaning: respect for a fellow human being when you educate - raise children. Yes, rules, respect for grown-ups, tasks, consistency - sure. Discipline, yes. Life doesn't work well without.

But respect for the child - as I said on another thread (the jokes thread, DD's jokes on education). No corporal punishment ever. No humiliating a child's feelings. No, not because we'd be afraid of angry parents - because we love and respect a fellow human being. Because we wouldn't want to break somebody's will by force. No, these children do not automatically turn into egoistic monsters. There is a wide range between what I mean and what you call totally anti-authoritarian upbringing. Does this become clear? I don't know.

My own kids - my pupils: I knnow they have their faults. I'm pretty critical, skeptical. Still my underlying attitude is a positive one.

greybeard, you don't want to tell me that when parents are very strict and authoritarian, their kids all turn into wonderful, respectful, hard-working adults. Never! Some do - some don't. It's human nature.

[greybeard]

Jenny, I think you made my point exactly. (the vast majority of teachers and parents see nothing wrong with the way they are performing,)

You also failed to explain, if you are getting things so right, why is it that "many, many kids grow into young adults who have no respect for any authority, their elders, or the rules they are required to obey outside of the academic environment." Or are you disputing this claim?

Edited by greybeard, 25 November 2010 - 05:33 PM.

[jenny407]

greybeard, on 25 November 2010 - 05:32 PM, said:

Jenny, I think you made my point exactly. (the vast majority of teachers and parents see nothing wrong with the way they are performing,)

Yes, I agree with you. If the vast majority of teachers and parents thought their way was wrong, they probably would act differently. Agreed.

You also failed to explain, if you are getting things so right, why is it that "many, many kids grow into young adults who have no respect for any authority, their elders, or the rules they are required to obey outside of the academic environment." Or are you disputing this claim?

Hmm, difficult. I'd say some young adults are like that, not many, many of them. My view is in fact different from yours. It depends. Looking around at my immediate surroundings, I can't agree with you. Looking at some Berlin high schools, I would agree.

greybeard, I really think I would need more time to explain totally - 5 hours at least. And I'm so sure you and me would never ever agree. It's perhaps not necessary. My view - your view. Two different worlds. That's ok with me. What I dislike is the fact that you always seem to assume YOU think for yourself, independently, and the OTHERS are all 'indoctrinated'. But I wouldn't want to quarrel about that with you. Seems it's your view, too. Mine is different.