14 replies to this topic

[Rachel75]

Hi all,

I need the benefit of hindsight and wisdom. My little girl is 20 months old and is beginning with the terrible twos. Joy. I am trying to find ways to handle her/it. I am also at the beginning. Am complete C5/6, married to able bod. Up to now discipline hasn't really been too much of an issue but now things are changing. Husband and I are discussing the technicalities of attempting to discipline our daughter in such a way that discipline can be carried out by either party, injury or not. This is the tricky bit.

Been reading and thinking a lot about positive discipline, rewards for good behaviour and I think that would work much better for us both, however we don't think she's at the stage yet where phrases like 'if you eat all your dinner and don't throw anything on the floor, then you can watch In the Night Garden' actually tallies in her head yet. Don't and won't escape her at the moment so we use 'no no' but she still hears 'throw anything on the floor' and will chuck it and that's the end of that. I have tried turning her round in her highchair and ignoring her when she does that but she likes it because then she gets to play with her highchair clips more. I have tried explaining why it is naughty in simple toddler terms but she just grins and says 'naughty'. I have tried making her pick her own food up off the floor but she likes doing that. My husband says we should go down the 'just ignore it' route, thus teaching her that doing X doesn't make her defiant and so she won't try and be defiant. I have problems with that mentality. I understand his logic but don't know if it would actually be effective. Also, I would feel by doing this I would be letting her get away with things I totally disagree with and that as her Mother, I wouldn't be teaching her the difference between right and wrong/good and bad and I would be worried about how she would behave in other peoples' houses. So am a bit stuck.

The kind of things she does is as follows:

Throwing food
Not closing spout on water/milk and turning it upside down so it just all comes out.
Hitting
Kicking
Spitting water/milk

I give her loads of attention and make sure she gets enough stimulation and try to think of lots of different ways to retain her toddler span interest. A lot of the time being out of the house is a lot easier but if my skin is a bit ropey and I have to be in bed for a few days or the weather is just not up to it, then I have to be more inventive. Especially when I am in bed.

Am trying to find out what has worked for other people. What are your views? Do you have wisdom to share?

Thanks for all your help.

Rachel

[snowqueeneh]

They don't call it "terrible twos" for nothing. I actually found my kids to be most difficult at 3 years old... and we were both AB's back then. All I can say is just hang in there. They do out grow it... and they do mature. There is no real reasoning at this age.

[HiltonP]

Good luck with the "rewards" thing, in my experience it doesn't work.
You just end up with kids who play with your mind, and who play you off against your partner, parents, grandparents.
They end up not doing anything unless you reward them, and everything, from eating, to clothing, behaviour, washing, etc becomes a debate session.

All but one of our friends have used the reward system, and all their kids, bar none, are nightmares . . . to such an extent that both they, and the kids, are losing friends because they are so unpleasant to be around. The one set of parents who actually used some physical discipline early on now have two really well adjusted little boys.

[airart1]

try reading her alot of books about behavior, t almost completly eliminated my sons terrible 2s, plus we played with alot of building stuff to occupy his mind..........just a thought.....

[tyvin]

People need to change their attitudes as far as toddlers go; it isn't the terrible twos it's the terrific twos. I have 2 boys and they are more then well adjusted; I never hit them to educate or punish them. It is harder work as a parent but I taught them that their actions had a direct effect. Not hitting but time outs, taking away of toys or cherished possessions etc... or just an old fashion sit down and talk or don't talk. Take the high chair clips away; don't ignore her, show her the consequences of her actions by putting her in time out. Any action should have immediate consequences positive and negative. Don't do complete sentences when talking to impress but talk succinct and use the verbs and nouns; she understands more then you think.

I applaud your effort/decision to not hit to teach. Our children deserve so much more from us. It was only 20 years ago that I did a research paper on corporal punishment. I was presenting my paper in front of the class and I could feel the almost hatred from the students when I started discussing alternatives to spanking. "My father spanked me and blah blah........." is what happened next. I think out of 40 students only about 3 agreed and actually listened to me. Attitudes are slowly changing and hopefully eventually all our children can grow up in spank free homes.

There was a study done that showed adults whom had been spanked as children; their IQ were 1 point less then their counterparts. Of course any good researcher knows you can find stats to fill any need you would like to prove. Many areas in Europe have laws against corporal punishment; no one has ever been jailed but it holds monetary fines. Just some FYI............

[Tetracyclone]

All children learn the delights of watching their grown ups perform at their cues.


Throwing food
Not closing spout on water/milk and turning it upside down so it just all comes out.
Hitting
Kicking
Spitting water/milk

While all of these things have their own entertainment value, the duration of interest will be multiplied exponentially if your grown-up will do an animated drama at the cue. All of those behaviors are normal in a 2 year old, and it is counterproductive to insert power struggles into the learning process. One only needs to gently steer the child toward sensible behaviors with many of the above offered suggestions, repeatedly and over time. Don't feel like you are shirking your job if your daughter doesn't abandon these behaviors just because you have explained they are unwelcome- first the entertainment of seeing spilled food and drink must fade to ordinariness. At that point the behavior will only persist if it has become a game to the child. The game is "See Mommy puff up her feathers and become gloriously animated"

Hitting and kicking are special behaviors that can have several meanings. At her age it is most natural to test out the behaviors, and the only guideline you cannot abandon is that she must not be allowed to gain from them. No doubt others will offer good ideas.

Good luck, Lady. You and your husband are already doing the most important work of having good discussions about how-tos.

Corporal punishment: I find nothing wrong with slapping a child on the arse TO GET THEIR ATTENTION. Doing so as punishment is different and has a different effect. Being completely dogmatic about anything can be a cover for not thinking.

[HiltonP]

The concept of "corporal punishment" it misunderstood. It does not necessarily mean daily beatings of a child, and indeed, if that is the case then clearly there is something far more serious involved than discipline. One or two swift, short, sharp clips early on in life sets the status quo. And that's really what it's all about, setting a status quo of you're the leader, and they're the follower, and leaders are to be listened to without hesitation.

For some unknown reason these days parents believe that if their child cries, or is unhappy, that it is somehow a negative reflection on them, and therefore do everything they can to appease the child. Perhaps this is why a swift smack is viewed with such horror, because it certainly will illicit a wail from the little prince or princess. Instead we have protracted negotiations and rewarding, and it ends up being the parents who do the wailing. To paraphrase the joke about argueing with a fool . . . never negotiate with a child, they bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.

In a somewhat sad confession a friend recently acknowledged that his little son (who is managed via the negotiation/reward system) has been called before the school principal more in his first six months of schooling than he (the father) had in his entire twelve years of schooling. He also conceded that they had resorted to giving the child medication to control his behaviour.

My peers and I all grew up in the time of corporal punishment. None of us can really remember any particular whackings, we just know that we must have been on the receiving end once or twice early on in our lives, and we remembered to tow the line. I asked a friend of mine the other day (he was one of four brothers) whether he could remember his father hitting him. His answer was no, but he KNEW, even into his late teens, that if he stepped out of line his father would whack him in a heartbeat. None of us grew up to be violent, or beat our wives, or feel disfunctional in any way.

[snowqueeneh]

I think that offering advice is wonderful... but pushing an opinion is something else. I cannot stand it when someone has an "I'm right" attitude about a topic. I mean the whole "1 point less in IQ" thing is just not impressive. It takes more than "Hit or don't hit" to raise a child properly. I didn't like the comment about the kids being "nightmares". I think that an attitude like that is why this kid ends up in the office. We are the adults, we should not judge or discriminate. I have two boys who are totally different. And I know that they were born that way. So, that adds to the big picture. I use the reward system, I mean we are talking a tic tac here. I tried the "time out" and I found it only frustrated me because my son was so stubborn and he was always in trouble. You have to pick your battles. If your child does have a "stubborn" personality then don't beat yourself up over it. You will have other parents that "don't get it" and think that your kid is a "nightmare". But I think that any adult who picks at all the mistakes a child is making is a "nightmare". I admit that sometimes I think the same thing about some kids too, but I check myself because I can always look back at a moment I had where things may have been similar at one time. So, like I said before. If you are a good parent - and I can tell you are - then just keep in mind that this phase will pass. There is no easy way, there is no ight and wrong, there is only keeping yourself sane lol. Just try to laugh some of it off if you can. Think of yourself telling her about what she did when she gets older. That's all I could do. One of my boys is an angel and one adevil. I do not treat them any differently. But the point is they are both very good boys, and my little "devil" is no longer this way because I can now reason with him. But when he was 2 & 3 - no way was that possible. That was just him, and I had to work with it. My other son never acted out or anything. He was quiet and just so sweet. But they are both well balanced kids and they actually do learn alot from eachother because they are so different. So just hang in there, and don't feel guilty if you have a bad day.

[HiltonP]

When a couple who had a fairly large circle of friends, has a child, and a couple of years later they have a small circle of friends, primarily because the child is so unpleasant to be around . . . that is a nightmare. It is a nightmare on more than one front. Firstly because their social structure is broken, secondly because the child has very few, if any, friends as well, and thirdly because there is no solution in sight because the child essentially runs the household. No good can come of it, and they are set on a road to ongoing grief.

Now, multiply this by other couples, and one begins to see a trend . . .

Rachel did ask for opinion.

[Snakeye]

Every generation is softer than the last and we will one day get to the point of no return...As Hilton said..Parents don't want their little babies to suffer so they are not spanked, aren't made to understand the word "no", made to observe good manners, taught a work ethic, to read a book, walk to school (even if it's just a block away), mow the lawn, exsercise in general and on and on...This "compassion" for the child is doing him or her no favors...life is tough sometimes and a youngster must learn to work and earn their own keep, take pain, do without and perhaps move out of momma's house and take responsiblity for themselves before age 40...I was raised on a farm and did chores before dawn then walked to school...worked all summer baling hay and walking beans to earn money for school clothes, etc....If I got out of line old gramps would take a plow-line to my backside..if I didn't pay attention in school I was paddled not given drugs and informed I was mentally unbalenced...If ya got in a fight in the school-yard you were being a boy not emotionally disturbed and sent to a shrink....Seems we are throwing a generation of kids into the world totally unprepared for life...Parents should get them kids off the computer and outside where they can exsercise, eat mud pies, fall down and skin a knee, skip some rocks off the pond,do some chores now and then, run in the snow, play in ther rain, go barefoot and butt heads when they feel like it...Just a crude observation..Perhaps I'm just too old fashioned for todays world.....

[HiltonP]

Snakeye 4 President!

[gordonr]

Spanking is good.

Timeouts are actually shunning. The kid is being told, do as I say, or the love is at risk. This might allow you to avoid looking like a violent parent, but it sure screws with kids heads. The worst case is a kid in daycare who sees his parents for only a couple hours a day and is then exiled to his room for a further part of that.

In comparison to that treatment, a loving parent who demands obedience with a punctual slap on the ass is a study in pure love and kindness.

The human race would be extinct if kids did not obey promptly when the circumstance demands. By the time a parent has explained WHY the kid must jump aside, the bus has already flattenned him.

None of this is an apology for child abuse. But correction of children is not abuse.

Although I do kind of miss that one point off my IQ. I wonder what it would have been like ?

-g

[Snakeye]

HiltonP, on 18 February 2011 - 07:21 AM, said:

Snakeye 4 President!

President no..Village dog-catcher maybe

[heddi57]

I understand what you are going through. My son was only one when I became a t-3 para. I was and still am a single mom, so I could not to control my todler as other mothers do. I learned that just by changing my tone of voice could help prevent most major catastrophies. I had to keep my voice very calm most all of the time so that if I did change my tone my son would notice something was different right away.I Some bad behaviors I did ignore, at that age, since most of what they do is testing how far they can get away with things. For instance the throwing food could be ignored. What can't be ignored is hitting and kicking. Those behaviors need to be dealt with when they occur. You can try and change your voice so that you get her attention, but if that does not work you may try age appropriate time outs.

[Cal86]

Some great ideas on this post. Im newly injured, and I've got a 5 year old boy. He's never been an issue before but I have concerns that he might take this hard or just decide to take advantage of the situation. Thanks