26 replies to this topic

[MIT ThermAssist]

Hello,

let me introduce ourselves. We're a team of 14 students from MIT trying to alleviate the issues of thermal regulation in people with chronic spinal chord injuries. Personally I'm fairly new to this area, I feel my team-mates knowledge on this issue may far outpace mine, however I would like to start a dialogue with a wider audience of people with an SCI to gauge what the most pressing issues are and your interest in having a problem that helps to solve these.
Hopefully this feedback of knowledge will continue to allow us to develop a system that will be the most effective in solving the problem and also something that you have helped to develop and may want to use.

So would you be able to give me some more information about what the main issues are. How prevalent is poikiliotermia (a term to describe poor body temp regulation, effectively your body temp varies considerably with the environmental temperature)? Is overheating or being too cold worse? What do you do if you play sport? What are your current solutions.

We look forward to hearing from you,
Jordan

[Muskie]

Hi Jordan,

My son is newly injured August 2 2011, and I tell you he is cold more than he is warm, but it has a daily cycle during the day always needs a hoodie or jacket, but at bedtime he needs the ac cranked up in the hospital room. ^am the cycle starts again with the heat being cranked. Current solutions are pretty much any abled bodied person would do add or remove clothing, raise or lower the heat, just happens more frequently.

So here is one of hopefully many data points.

Best Regards,

Muskie

[lifeisgood]

Excellent work project! Thanks!

Cold is worse for me..as I can be cold at 77 degrees, and I get coldest when I first get to bed..as my legs are up and I figure all the cold blood from the poor circulation there.then circulates through my body...so I suffer for a while..and hate the air on then. My husband runs HOT all the time..prefers cool temps..so you can see he is required to suffer for me often! poor guy. Maybe you can fix him too! Make him run cooler )

I think if there was some socks with heating mechanism that are safe..we would do much better in colder conditions and not have this issue.

[Nicus]

Hi yesterday/today we had a heat wave same heat and humidity for both days.
My bowl routine was yesterday so I felt allot more uncomfortable heat wise.
It was 37'celcius both days and what seams to help is wet towels/shirt in freezer.
Apply mist spray to face and shoulders as well as tummy and legs.
Cold not a prob for me unless I have a UTI. Believe every person has a temperature coefficient.
We substitute sweat with water hope it helps. Good luck with study guys.

[Vanessamaee]

I get cold during the days and usually need a jacket, blanket, or hoodie. At nights I get crazy hot and need the fan and ac on and I still might end up seating. AD causes me to sweat. Also in high temperatures and direct sunlight, like during the summer, it is really hard for me to cool down since I dont sweat below my injury level. Same for when it is cold. If my legs get cold, I have to use a heat source (heated blanket, fire, another persons body heat) in order to warm up since I can not shiver below my injury level.
When I was in the hospital my doctor told me a story about how when they first allowed paraplegics to race in the Chicago marathon the weather was really cold and rainy. So they placed blankets on all the paraplegics just like they did for all the other runners. however since the paraplegics were already cold and wet, and could not shiver, they ended up getting hypothermia.

Dont know if any of that helps, but good luck with your studies! (:

[KayDub]

Cool project! (No pun intended, promise). I have an incomplete injury, so I have some sensation below my "injury" level (I actually got sick with transverse myelitis). My feet are completely numb and I have increasing sensation up to my bellybutton (T 10)area. I can't feel certain feelings like wetness or softer touches or even pin pricks on my legs. If I get hit really hard I feel the pressure. It's kind of weird.

As far as temperature, I just responded to a post on this! Hope you don't mind if I copy and paste:

"For months after I left hospital I was freezing, I'd go into the pool for PT and my teeth would chatter even though it was heated. It was over 90 F (32 C) and I'd keep the windows up in the car with no air on to stay warm. Then it did a 180 about a month and a half ago. Now I'm constantly boiling. I was wearing a tank top and shorts one day in class when everyone else was wearing sweatshirts and jeans."

I've been having flair ups of AD lately, which my doctors think has to do with the constant hot feeling. I guess when they sort that out it'll be back to being freezing? Just in time for winter and I live in the Rocky Mountains... awesome!

As far as sports I try to swim daily (I've modified some strokes to get in the water and stretch, do cardio and get some strength/resistance). I also started to play sled hockey in September and that's once a week. Before I got sick I was a kid's ski instructor and while the mountain is tentative to let me return to that job, I've been able to convince them to let me ski with a few of my clients from last year in a monoski. I was an adaptive kids instructor before, ironically I suppose, and already had all my sit ski certification. I hope to do some rafting and when I move back to Perth (after the ski season ends) I was to get into handcycling and adaptive surfing. I'm really outdoorsy and miss hiking, backpacking and rock climbing so I'm also working on ways to do those things.

Hope this helped a bit, good luck!

[ebeth]

I find that I can't handle both too cold and too hot temperatures. I live in Canada so I deal with cold more than the heat. I basically avoid going outside in the winter unless it's to and from the car in a parking lot. If I have to be outside any longer than needed, I get too cold. My remedy is to turn the heat on high in a small room, wrap up with blankets and drink something warm. It can sometimes take a few hours to get warm.
Regarding heat: Yes, even in Canada it can sometimes get too warm. I find that if I exert myself on a really hot day (i.e over 25 degrees Celsius), I get lightheaded. If I spend too much time in the sun, I get too hot. I know that I'm too hot when I start to sweat. I don't sweat until I get too hot. My solution is to find air conditioning and drink something cool.

[Tetracyclone]

lifeisgood, on 24 October 2011 - 06:56 PM, said:

Excellent work project! Thanks!

Cold is worse for me..as I can be cold at 77 degrees, and I get coldest when I first get to bed..as my legs are up and I figure all the cold blood from the poor circulation there.then circulates through my body...so I suffer for a while..and hate the air on then. My husband runs HOT all the time..prefers cool temps..so you can see he is required to suffer for me often! poor guy. Maybe you can fix him too! Make him run cooler )

I think if there was some socks with heating mechanism that are safe..we would do much better in colder conditions and not have this issue.

You can make, or have someone make, envelope with seed corn that you put in the microwave to heat before bedtime. This will warm your feet well, maintain heat for an hour or so, but how th get them off can be a problem. i finally settled for a little baby blanket of the warmer corn which I can kick down once it is cooled off and no longer needed. Once Feet are warm for the night, mine stay warm.

In answer to the survey, nothing helps my overall system more than getting regular exercise.

[MIT ThermAssist]

Hi everyone, thanks so much for the feedback so far! It's genuinely very helpful to us.

So one concept that's currently being looked in to is the idea of integrating some heating and cooling into a wheelchair seat, and also by sensing body/skin temperature somehow it can then act appropriately. I've heard that wheelchair seats are often (and expensively) custom fitted to ensure no pressure points so the consideration of that is very important. (Is price a major issue?)

What are your thoughts on this? How important is it to have both heating and cooling features? is it normally that either over/under-heating is the prevalent issue for the day? or would the convenience of not having to change anything outweigh any cost? What are your thoughts about having it in the seat? would an item of clothing/blanket be preferential?

We've seen some heated socks, blankets and vests and also some cooling vests available on the market? Does anyone use these or why not?

Also please continue to post about the general issues and remedies you have for personal overheating/cooling. We're trying to get as much information as possible and it all helps to make any product relevant and useful to you. Hope I haven't overwhelmed with questions!

Thanks again
Jordan

Edited by MIT ThermAssist, 26 October 2011 - 04:12 AM.

[goose]

Jordan

I've been wishing someone would invent something to help me stay warm. The mircowavable products are okay but don't stay hot long enough. I have a warming throw which has been a life savor but it has a cord so I'm attacted to the plugin...stuck in 1 place.

If there was a way to keep my turtleneck shirt hot like right out of the dryer but last for many hours. Now, that would make me happy. My heat source needs to be close to my neck. I have a infarred heater which is great inside but need something for going to public places.

Another consideration...it can't be large enough to get caught in wheelchair tires. The snuggie is okay for the sofa but not for a wheelchair.

If you need a tester, I'm more than willing to help. I HATE being cold! It limits me going places in the winter and I live very close to the Florida line. Below 80 degrees and I start getting cold.

Best invention ever....dual heat/air in cars!!!!!!!!!!

Hurry...it's already getting cold!!

[KayDub]

goose, on 27 October 2011 - 05:02 AM, said:

Jordan

I've been wishing someone would invent something to help me stay warm. The mircowavable products are okay but don't stay hot long enough. I have a warming throw which has been a life savor but it has a cord so I'm attacted to the plugin...stuck in 1 place.

If there was a way to keep my turtleneck shirt hot like right out of the dryer but last for many hours. Now, that would make me happy. My heat source needs to be close to my neck. I have a infarred heater which is great inside but need something for going to public places.

Another consideration...it can't be large enough to get caught in wheelchair tires. The snuggie is okay for the sofa but not for a wheelchair.

If you need a tester, I'm more than willing to help. I HATE being cold! It limits me going places in the winter and I live very close to the Florida line. Below 80 degrees and I start getting cold.

Best invention ever....dual heat/air in cars!!!!!!!!!!

Hurry...it's already getting cold!!

Please hurry. Goose will never be able to come visit me if she can't stand temps below 80 (until I move back to Perth and that's a realllly long expensive plane ride!)

And you are right about the wheelchair cushions. Mine is relatively basic since I have a low damage level and can do my own weight shifts and get out of my chair relatively often (though that's changing). It runs about $300 I think, mine is through the medical company that plays middle man with my insurance and my doctors and the wheelchair sales reps so it might be more.

Since a lot of us can't feel our bums how much would it help? I know it still would make a difference in temperature regulation, but would it be the most efficient? I have a science degree but I like rocks and dirt and water, so my anatomy knowledge is limited.

Keep up with the great work though! It'd be nice not to sweat to death or to have to get tons of warm clothes on and then inevitably stuck in my chair.

[MIT ThermAssist]

Thanks again for the replies.

Kaydub you make a very good point highlighting the question of where to heat. I need to confirm this with the rest of the group as I may be wrong but I believe what we've discovered so far is so:

Many people will warm or cool the upper body/neck as this gives the greatest feeling relief - it actually feels like something is happening so its a strong psychological effect. However I believe we've found research showing that this warm feeling correlates very poorly with actual core temperature - the body can be tricked into thinking it is suitably warm as a large proportion of the sensitive skin is now kept warm, but ignoring what may be considerable heat loss through legs etc.

I think the reasoning is that if we can in a way recreate the thermal regulation of regions that no longer can, e.g. sense thigh temperature and then suitably heat or cool preventatively before the user starts to 'feel' too cold and reach for the microwavable blanket, then we might be able to create a product that is of genuine benefit. The cushion is one area to implement this but a flexible, moveable pad is also being considered.

Anyway, this is still in the formation stages (but moving quickly) so if anything sounds dumb or doesn't align with your experiences then please let us know. You're the experts here! Keep it coming!

[goose]

From my experience, the areas that I have normal true sensation is what feels the temp. For example, if my legs feel cold to the touch and I wrap them with an electric blanket, I'm still cold if my neck and face are cold. It takes an average quad about 3 hours to get warm to the core.

If my feet feel cold but I can warm my neck then I'm warm regardless of how my legs or feet feel. My brain tells me I'm cold or hot depending on what my neck area feels.

Our normal body temp. is about 2 degrees below normal. Mine runs around 96 degrees.

Spinal cord injury wrecks our internal thermastat. We aren't able to sweat when we are hot but do sweat if we have a problem. So if there is a problem in cold weather , you really freeze because the sweat is cooling you off but you wasn't hot to start with.

I know ...it's strange very strange!!! Be glad it's not you trying to deal with it.

As soon as I feel a cool breeze in the winter, I'm frozen. It happens quickly! I drink lots of hot drinks and absolutely NO ice drinks.

Edited by goose, 27 October 2011 - 11:46 PM.

[wheeliebear75]

I think the challenge as you can see for your team will be to come up with something that is not only able to both keep a person warm AND cool with one system but getting said system to be something "usable".....space-suites would work but they're way too bulky & very much non cost-effective.

Something that can provide both cooling & heating
It'd have to not be too bulky or cumbersome (we already have issues with being able to move limbs properly + would make "putting on" that much difficult)
It needs to be "washable" or at least able to wipe clean.
And it also needs to be able to allow us to still use the restroom (get it off or go around it)
PORTABILITY....battery packs is one thing.....NEEDING to be plugged into an outlet takes the "convenience" out of it.

I'm really interested to see what your team comes up with.

[Maltese Cat]

And of course SAFE! any heated item worn below level of injury cannot be felt by the wearer so risk of burns from malfunctioning items are high. You ask whether people wear the heated clothing,and i think often they dont because they cant trust them (my husband wont let me put an electric blanket on the bed for instance).
theres a thread somewhere around on the subject of sit skiing that has some fantastic photos of nasty burnt toes from a pair of overheating heated boots...

[goose]

Is it ready yet??????

[Tetracyclone]

Jordan,

I suggest you consult with the engineers of Amerigon Inc, 248-504-0500, in Michigan. I'm sure you know of them but I post a description for our members. These folks have the leading heating/cooling technology, productive facilities, and patents at this point. They now make car seats that both heat and cool, I believe. Do not try to reinvent the wheel ,unless this is for academic credit, of course.

Also, I think steering clear of wheelchair cushions is smart but what about a stiff folding "cushion" that attaches to the knee-side edge of the seat and hangs down to the ankles. One could flip it open (aside) to get in and out of the chair, as well as plug it into a battery of a power chair. A little flip-down section could fold down from the outer panel to cover thee feet, then stay out of the way with velcro when not in use. A quick charge version for manual chair users that could be charged while we are sitting at a desk for awhile, or watching TV. This would address at least the leg problem- the area of greatest difficulty in circulation for most of us.

Amerigon Incorporated engages in the design, development, and marketing of electronic components and systems based on thermoelectric device technologies for heating and cooling applications. It principally offers the Climate Control Seat, which provides comfort to automotive seat occupants by producing active heating and cooling. The company sells its products to automobile and light truck original equipment manufacturers or their tier one suppliers in the United States, Japan, Korea, Mexico, the United Kingdom, Canada, China, Germany, and Taiwan. Amerigon Incorporated was founded in 1991 and is headquartered in Northville, Michigan.

[MIT ThermAssist]

Thanks again for the continued feedback, and we'll certainly try to contact Amerigon to see if they can provide any help for this project. Here are a couple more questions from the team:

1. How much time do you spend in extreme cold or heat before you have to seek a temperature-controlled environment? How often is this unavoidable (commute from between classes at school, household chores, etc)?

2. If you had a battery-powered thermal regulation system, how long would you want the batteries to last? Two hours? Four hours? How much additional weight would you be willing to add to your wheelchair to accomplish this?


Jordan

[MIT ThermAssist]

Hi, MIT again:
First, thank you for all of your feedback--it's been invaluable in helping us develop our product further.
Second, we have another question for you guys: Our current design includes a strap that contains several skin temperature sensors. This strap is meant to be worn on part of the body that is being heated or cooled by our product. However, we are concerned about the usability issues that this strap might present to potential users. We will not be able to use wireless sensors in our product (they will not work with our controller), so this strap would have to be connected to the controller with a wire. Also, the strap would have to be moved if the user wanted to move the pad to heat a different part of his or her body. We believe that we can engineer enough safeguards (such as temperature thresholds well below burning temperatures, and time-based shutoff mechanisms) into the pad itself so that it would not be necessary to have sensors directly monitoring skin temperature. However, we recognize that many people might feel safer and more comfortable knowing that their skin temperature is being actively monitored. Our question for you is, knowing this information, would you be more inclined to use a product with a strap, or one without a strap?
Thank you,
Marie

[Quad10]

Hi, and Thank-you for welcomming me... The frustration I'm dealing with is simply,my body is feeling as though it's on fire from head to toe. It basically is occuring at night and the pain is at times unbearable. Idon't sleep,and i do try to dress to match body temp,but i live in the Northeast where the weather changes quickly... By 4 or 5 o'clock i am waking someone to cover me,and it bothers me to disturb their sleep.I get an increase of spasms with the temp change,be it hot or cold.Any suggestions out there? Agood nights sleep would be Fantastic!

[wheeliebear75]

To answer the question about "straps".

I think that depends on what materials they're made of. Some materials like nylon although they're sturdy can rub whereas some of the softer materials may not last quite as long wearing & tearing with prolonged or frequent use but would be less likely to cause "sheering" or rubbing too harshly on the skin. Also remember that some of us have spasms that will make the legs bounce around so there would NEED TO BE some sort of way to keep the pads on.

I do use heating pads but I have to check frequently & I keep the setting down lower so it can't BURN me.

Some people are more sensitive....but this is just MY take on straps.

[Courtney]

Hi guys! My husband, a C6, is always cold---always in a hoodie and a toboggin.....but something I would like to see is something to keep him cool in the summer. Our kids love the pool, the zoo, park, etc..... but my husband can't stay out long in the heat.....and when he comes in from being at the pool with him, we have to get cold towels and put on him to lower his body temperature.....he doesn't sit out in the sun when they are there--always under some sort of shade.

No way my husband will wear anything that makes him look any more disabled than his wheelchair does:) aka, straps, buttons, monitors..alot like being in the hospital....... Any way to make this device into a shirt?

[St. Elmo]

Mr Jordon; I am a T4-5 complete and live in the North Florida area real near the beach and spend, when it's warm enough, a lot of time out in the sun keepin up my tan and ex surfer dude image. I do not sweat below my injury line, except for a very small ammount down my lower back, and do sweat tremendously from the nipple area upwards. This doesn't present a real problem because I don't have to dress up in the summer and spend all my time in just shorts and no shirt, However it does make a major difference if I have to wear, particularly, long pants and shirts that cover my neck and upper arms and shoulders/neck area. Then I am always wet. I am a serious handcyclist, regularly riding for about 2 hours (25-30 mi.) and I do not take it easy, but because I drink a lot of water all of the time, and carry water with me on my rides I have no problems overheating even when I ride in the middle of the day, although I avoid riding in the Florida summer afternoons. I do all my workouts and sunning before around 1pm. I have to say that I am acclimated to the sun and temp. here and don't know what would happen if you came from a milder clime and did whai I do. I had cancer attached to the lymph nodes in my left neck and during traetments and their after effects laid in bed and didn't eat for about 11 months ending about a year ago, I lost 45 lbs. of muscle and all my body fat and sure catch a chill real easily this winter compared to before my problems, I mean real easy. I am living in thermal underware, multipal layers and a beanie head covering and hating it. As mentioned in other posts keeping my neck and head warm, usually with a hoodie makes a large difference. Anything you make is going to have to have padded easily adjustable straps, and some sort of skin surface temp. montoring method,, or people are going to injure themselfs. I would think if your device has many wires, attachments and stuff like that very few people are going to use it unless all they do is sit at home doing nothing. Life already takes way too long to acomplish anything, and is enough of a logistical problem anyway. Is your program working on some sort of "cool suit" ? I am involved in the local Brooks Rehabilitation Hospital's Adaptive Sports Program(s) and many of our quad athletes have problems with not sweating and tending to overheat in our summer months. They are always carring spray bottles, and/or we're just dumping water on em to keep them going. Hope this helps. Don Hall

[Stand]

I have a problem with keeping warm. To the point where I think I drive people crazy with my requests to stay warm, whether it be increasing the thermostat or turning the fireplace on. I generally keep the house and 72°. When I do actually go outside into the cold weather, it really doesn't bother me. Go figure. As far as heat goes during the summer, it really doesn't bother me. I rarely, if ever, need to go inside or into shade to cool down. The only thing I worry about is getting too much sun. Not sure this is helpful but I thought I would put my 2¢ in. Good luck with the study.

Edited by Stand117711, 23 January 2012 - 06:45 AM.

[MIT ThermAssist]

Hey All,

Thought I'd give you an update of where this got to - I realise how annoying these forum posts can be if nothing gets shown of it.

The Semester finished last Decemember and we had to present the idea to a crowd of about 1000 people. You can see our presentation here http://web.mit.edu/2...tations/red.mov and all the other products from the class here.

It'd be great to hear what you think!

All the best,
Jordan

[Nicus]

Hi what about using thermo blancket technology they use for roadside accidents to keep warm?

[munkypoop]

Some of the time my body becomes cold when there is a large decrease in temperature outside. It literally feels like I am frozen solid through the bone. And a lot of times it hurts. I can't go outside unless it is over 70°F, which is about two months out of the year where I live. If I tried to warm up with a blanket I overheat before the cold goes away. I can feel absolutely frozen but if someone feels my arms or something. I feel fine or warm most of the times, otherwise I feel cold. It usually takes a few days or a week for me to finally warm up. And I feel wet from sweat or what ever whether I am sweating are not. I know the barometer change can make me feel completely wet on my entire body.