13 replies to this topic

[A trophy guy]

Section V: METABOLIC RESPONSE TO STARVATION
"In the non-stressed starved patient, decreased nutrient intake leads to a decrease in metabolic activity, thereby conserving energy. A severe decrease in nutrient intake leads to a rapid depletion of the body’s carbohydrate stores. This process would be found in elective surgery patients made NPO prior to the procedure. In addition, patients may arrive with a pre-existing semi-starved state. After surgery or trauma the “stress response” takes over and over-rides the adaptive starvation response.

Because key tissues such as the brain are obligate users of carbohydrate, gluconeogenesis in the liver must provide the necessary carbohydrate. The initial substrate for new carbohydrate formation are the amino acids resulting from muscle breakdown. An additional mechanism to provide substrate is via incomplete glucose metabolism to lactate in tissues, with recycling of lactate to the liver for carbohydrate formation via the Cori cycle. In the absence of increased levels of insulin as a result of low carbohydrate levels, lipolysis can occur, with the production of ketone bodies for subsequent use as calories. This process of ketosis is inhibited in stress states, in the presence of high levels of catechols and corticoids. Obligate carbohydrate users such as the brain and red cells require some glucose but most other tissues can effectively utilize ketone bodies for energy. Ketosis and ketonuria (acetone) are evidence of this process and characteristic of the semi-starved state. This response is an adaptive one that preserves lean body mass and decreases energy demands."


I copied and pasted this from a medical website. What it details, basically, is that when a person stops eating; either intentionally (crash dieting/anorexia) or unintentionally (starvation) the body must use it's own precious tissues for energy sources. And the very first tissue that is utilized, once all the stored energy is burned, is muscle tissue.

Now it does say that if the starvation is prolonged for an extended period of time, the body will try to adapt and burn fat more as an energy source, otherwise the person would die all too quickly, but the first thing that is burned is most definitely muscle.

So for those of you concerned with either losing weight or gaining it, just know that all weight is not lost or gained equally in regards to your health. Always eat, regardless of whether you are trying to lose or gain. Eat and eat often. Just pay attention to what you are eating and just how much of it you are "puttin' away" when you do.

[Tetracyclone]

Thanks for this! I lost weight steadily for 10 months, and return to low cal status unintentionally when abroad where I cannot get foods my body is accustomed to, or sometimes it is just too difficult to prepare enough good food, from the viewpoint of my tired little brain. Complex reasons sometimes. But your post explains for me why I have had so much difficulty getting stronger, and why i lost weight but seemed to only lose the fat layer at the end of the process, when I dipped below 100 lbs.

I return to the US in December. It will be a struggle again until we find an accessible place to live where eI can prepare food easily. After that, eating contest!

Whenever I have eaten well I have a good workout, but eating well can be a huge challenge at times, including that when you are deeply hungry you lose your appetite.

[MTB John]

Thanks for this info.
I've really struggled with a lack of appetite since my injury.
I know I need to eat more but sometimes it's just too much effort..

[A trophy guy]

MTB John, on 16 November 2011 - 03:13 AM, said:

Thanks for this info.
I've really struggled with a lack of appetite since my injury.
I know I need to eat more but sometimes it's just too much effort..

Just start with a little at a time, and work your way up; sorta like the way you would train your muscles Your appetite will catch up, trust me. And if you eat frequently, this will keep your metabolism (and blood sugar and insulin) running on an even level; this is the ideal environment for muscle growth. Interestingly enough, it is also the ideal environment for weight loss. At least fat loss. But that's another story and it's not what you are after anyway.

[lavenderthistle]

Just chiming in here...because I actually deal with eating and weight loss issues. Also hoping to shed some light on the mystery that is walking SCI

People in no man's land Walking Q's Walking Para's tend to burn more calories for EVERYTHING. Simply moving up stairs, across a room, tying shoes, chopping food, breathing, etc...Requires WAY more energy than ever before. Plus many of us have vastly reduced appetites. I can't digest if I find myself overly stressed, worn out or just worn down. I realize a day has gone by and I've forgotten to eat. I have to schedule and time things, plus some days things just won't really digest.

Your advice on food and eating is really appreciated, but you have to keep in mind that not ALL of us is on the same level playing field. Please don't take this the wrong way, but when giving global advice. When some of us are injured we start craving more easily digested carbs because we REQUIRE quick energy.


http://www.ilru.org/...ibrary/SCI1.htm eating well with SCI

http://www.livestron...njury-patients/ This has lots of great info on health for SCI's...also where nutty Lav got started on her vitamin quest.


So, while it is very true that body muscle mass can be lost during starvation this is also true

http://www.livestron...-fat-or-muscle/ This is just maintaining activity....since walking sci's burn more calories...we need more carbs and quick energy to simply maintain our daily function.

"carbohydrates, fats and proteins -- that work together to fuel the body during rest and exercise. However, carbohydrates and fats are typically used first for fuel before protein found muscle tissue." this was lifted from this ^^^^^^^^ it's an article at livestrong

Hope this contributes to your August thread rather than detract from it.

[A trophy guy]

lavenderthistle, on 21 November 2011 - 05:54 PM, said:

Just chiming in here...because I actually deal with eating and weight loss issues. Also hoping to shed some light on the mystery that is walking SCI

People in no man's land Walking Q's Walking Para's tend to burn more calories for EVERYTHING. Simply moving up stairs, across a room, tying shoes, chopping food, breathing, etc...Requires WAY more energy than ever before. Plus many of us have vastly reduced appetites. I can't digest if I find myself overly stressed, worn out or just worn down. I realize a day has gone by and I've forgotten to eat. I have to schedule and time things, plus some days things just won't really digest.

Your advice on food and eating is really appreciated, but you have to keep in mind that not ALL of us is on the same level playing field. Please don't take this the wrong way, but when giving global advice. When some of us are injured we start craving more easily digested carbs because we REQUIRE quick energy.


http://www.ilru.org/...ibrary/SCI1.htm eating well with SCI

http://www.livestron...njury-patients/ This has lots of great info on health for SCI's...also where nutty Lav got started on her vitamin quest.


So, while it is very true that body muscle mass can be lost during starvation this is also true

http://www.livestron...-fat-or-muscle/ This is just maintaining activity....since walking sci's burn more calories...we need more carbs and quick energy to simply maintain our daily function.

"carbohydrates, fats and proteins -- that work together to fuel the body during rest and exercise. However, carbohydrates and fats are typically used first for fuel before protein found muscle tissue." this was lifted from this ^^^^^^^^ it's an article at livestrong

Hope this contributes to your August thread rather than detract from it.

This doesn't contradict anything I outlined in my OP. Don't confuse bodyfat with ingested fat. Two different things.

Edited by A trophy guy, 21 November 2011 - 09:13 PM.

[Charlie-boi]

Facts is any stored molecules with a carboxyl group attached to it can enter a metabolic pathway! Mainly being amino acids, sugars fats! Trophy guys text covers a few of the metabolic pathways involved in the break down of these substrates! The ratio between metabolism and storage can be manipulated through our diets and exercise! Learn these metabolic pathways and you will never need to ask advice on dieting again! The baisic idea however is all these pathways are used to abstract charged ions from our food which is used in the main energy system in the body being the electron transport system! These ions through a process of using a electrochemical gradiant forces the product known as ATP "energy" this is what causes muscular contraction allowing us to move!

Essentially I think weight control comes down to one thing! "kcal's in vs kcal's out"

[wheeliebear75]

Are we talking NORMAL humans.....OR...are we talking BODYBUILDER-ers?

I'll just go tell my Dr. that he don't know cuz he has this crazy idea that your body only breaks down muscle after it's gone through glycogen which is what helps hold your hair in your head & keeps the layers of the finger nails from peeling. Imagine telling me that 1st the body uses up the glucose already in the blood, then goes to the liver. Oh and as for what the body eats up or breaks down; 1st what's still in the digestive tract, then when that is gone the fats & lastly muscle. You schooled HIM.

Edited by wheeliebear75, 22 November 2011 - 08:17 AM.

[Charlie-boi]

Yeh what your saying sounds pretty much spot on! Protein wise the body has a constant turn over! We usually have too much so it's simply lost in our urine this is the point the body has a bight protein turn over! Cells are constantly being replicated and mitosis and myosis just involves the right codes for amino acids to make the cell wanted! So in starvation mode protein turn over in fact is slowed down at first as body wants to store it and not loose it through urine! But use wats available for cell replication! And as wheeliebare put it degradation of muscle cells usually takes effect after glycogen then fat!

[Edinburgh Colin]

Interesting thread, is all the above information based on able bodied people with fully functional autonomic systems and consequentioally if the autonomic system is compromised as it is for most of us what effect does that have?

EC

[Charlie-boi]

Good question collin! Simple answer from me is....Im not sure but these are my thoughts!

Most of digestion is autonomic and can work quite independanyly that's why things like bowels and kidneys still can take nutrients from the food and work when injury level is above them!

when I think about it I think being sci will have effects on our metabolism! But in ways really linked to exercise and hormones! Alot of metabolism is effected by hormones they can tell the body when to burn or store food! Having alot less muscle function especially in the legs can effect this! An example Is exercising the legs can stimulate growth hormone and in males testosterone also which are linked to metabolism! So in that case if you went deeper with it maybe the having no signals from sexual organs can also effect the release of many other hormones! Remember most hormones are released from the pituitary gland in the brain not the organs or body parts them selves which usually have receptors! But this is deep stuff which an endocrinologist is needed lol!

[Big E]

Charlie-boi, on 22 November 2011 - 02:36 PM, said:

Yeh what your saying sounds pretty much spot on! Protein wise the body has a constant turn over! We usually have too much so it's simply lost in our urine this is the point the body has a bight protein turn over! Cells are constantly being replicated and mitosis and myosis just involves the right codes for amino acids to make the cell wanted! So in starvation mode protein turn over in fact is slowed down at first as body wants to store it and not loose it through urine! But use wats available for cell replication! And as wheeliebare put it degradation of muscle cells usually takes effect after glycogen then fat!

Muscle or fat cells aren't replicated, there has been limited research on this but for the most part your muscle cells don't normally get replicated, they either grow larger or smaller depending on whether or not they are stimulated to grow. The same thing with fat cells, you don't get more of them, they just get larger or smaller. Also, one thing that some people tend to believe is that "when you stop working out, all your muscle will turn into fat" i have heard that statement so many times and it's ridiculous, fat and muscle cells are two totally different things, they can't change into each other, they only grow larger or smaller, therefore, when u stop working out, yes it might look like your muscle turns into fat but in reality, without stimulation, your muscle cells just shrunk and your fat cells probably grew larger.

[Charlie-boi]

Big E, on 24 November 2011 - 03:52 AM, said:

Charlie-boi, on 22 November 2011 - 02:36 PM, said:

Yeh what your saying sounds pretty much spot on! Protein wise the body has a constant turn over! We usually have too much so it's simply lost in our urine this is the point the body has a bight protein turn over! Cells are constantly being replicated and mitosis and myosis just involves the right codes for amino acids to make the cell wanted! So in starvation mode protein turn over in fact is slowed down at first as body wants to store it and not loose it through urine! But use wats available for cell replication! And as wheeliebare put it degradation of muscle cells usually takes effect after glycogen then fat!

Muscle or fat cells aren't replicated, there has been limited research on this but for the most part your muscle cells don't normally get replicated, they either grow larger or smaller depending on whether or not they are stimulated to grow. The same thing with fat cells, you don't get more of them, they just get larger or smaller. Also, one thing that some people tend to believe is that "when you stop working out, all your muscle will turn into fat" i have heard that statement so many times and it's ridiculous, fat and muscle cells are two totally different things, they can't change into each other, they only grow larger or smaller, therefore, when u stop working out, yes it might look like your muscle turns into fat but in reality, without stimulation, your muscle cells just shrunk and your fat cells probably grew larger.

Yeh I get what your saying but all cells be it muscle skin etc are always replicateing! I don't mean in terms of like you getting bigger and smaller! By replicating I mean all the parts "organelles" in a cell which allow it to work age and are finally destroyed and replaced by new organelles made from protein sysnthesis etc! So it's not all about makeing lots of new cells but replicating parts in them to keep them functioning well!
When this process slows down it's a sympal sign of ageing!
I herd somewhere that it take like 15 years or something for you to have a new body in terms of cells that are new or at least different ones to what you had before! I know that sound like bullshit but when you think about it some cells are new every day as in hair! Skin intestine Walls...

[greybeard]

Charlie-boi, on 24 November 2011 - 02:43 PM, said:

I herd somewhere that it take like 15 years or something for you to have a new body in terms of cells that are new or at least different ones to what you had before!

Sounds a bit like Trigger's broom in Only Fools and Horses.