109 replies to this topic

[dancin' johnny]

What Q said √

The only time I have ever barked at someone was in a pub not long after I came out of rehab. I was on my way back to my friends after using the bathroom. I came down the ramp from the upper level where it was situated and this bloke stopped me and insisted on shaking my hand. I gave him the privilege just to get away from him and then he said, "The toilets are down there" and pointed down the pub to where my friends were. I offered my hand to shake his again but snubbed him and pointed to where I had just come from and calmly explained, "No they are up that ramp on the next level you twat".

Oh, I tell a lie, there was this other occasion I have just remembered:

The only other time I have barked at someone was on a hill outside a bar on Sunset Boulevard. This schmoozie alleged record executive had invited my two friends and I back to his house. It was obvious he was coked up to the high heavens and wanted to flatter one of my friends into bed. Me and my other friend knew it was a bad idea and were hanging outside looking in shop windows discussing what a cock he was when I suddenly started moving up the hill. His car was parked further up and he had come out of the bar in a hurry to get us back to his place. I grabbed the wheels, twisted around and managed to punch his chin and calmly said, "What the ƒuck are you doing you .unt?"

I think generally the best thing to do is give everyone a fair chance, let them say their thing to you and absorb it, respond in articulate way, try to educate them if they are wrong whilst being friendly and polite. The chances are they are going to tell their friends they met a really nice person in a wheelchair and saw them do something they didn't know was possible or learnt something new. We can only hope this helps to water down the curiosity and nervousness some people have towards us.

[StillFingers]

I'm back, laptop in use...but no need to expound on my honey/polite vs vinegar/rude analogy; that I later added to my 2nd post, both Qbounce and DJ; and others, have expanded quite eloquently on the issue; thank you folks, be still my heart

[A trophy guy]

ATG...he wasn't being rude, uninformed as to the differing levels of abilities most chair users have; yes, not knowing how to feel about your independence, embarrassed to ask, yes...so he did his best, you could have been his first...it isn't easy for either "side."

Most people see high level chair users; usually in hospital or being cared for, not many actually see; even know, anyone, that is highly active in a chair. It's gotten much better in the last 30+ yrs, our exposure thru tv, the disabled games, etc., but each of us "cripples" have/are different.

Once in country, in chair, our perspectives, sight, changes. We notice the differences, abilities, with clear, more compassionate hearts...our advantage is we live, breath, feel this every moment. Those not of us, around us; little or not at all, have the luxury of a "normal" body, taken for granted as they walk/run about unimpeded. Until taken away, did any of us see as we do now...how could we...how can they.

I don't doubt your feeling him rude...I did also, long ago...honey attracts best, vinegar often chases away. It is very important to stand our ground and as important to relax, extend a hand, a simple positive explanation, to enlighten...so that your next brother/sister that is chair bound not be misunderstood, talked to in an uninformed "rude" manner; it's our responsibility for those that follow in our tire tracks.

Next time you might reply...thanks for noticing, I do okay for myself

Deal with the assholes as best you can, the rest try and at least be polite...until they're not, when this happens it's like wishing, wasted time/breath.

During the last job I worked at, near 6 yrs, as a development manager/chief system architect, leading design teams, risk management sessions, client meetings, mentoring a dozen developers, well most of my team knew me quite well "at work", only a few had seen my non-work life; or cared to for that matter, it's to much of a bother/chore.

At a staff meeting someone quipped "well everyone puts their pants on the same way", I smiled, chuckled to myself...our president; who knew me quite well smiled back...said, well not all of us...she said sure we do...he replied...not our fearless Jer, he's got people that do that for him...she got this odd look, stood up, came over to me, said damn I forget about your chair, it never occurred to me someone has to help you get ready each day, I feel so stupid...I replied, no worries I can always use a good pair of hands we were drinkin n playing pool that next friday...all's cool if you want it to be, see this is learned behavior; playin 9-ball n drinkin shots from a chair, one that rolls!

Seeya round the forum, old fart sayin

I never said he was being rude. I know this guy absolutely meant nothing bad at all by his comments, just the opposite; he was complimenting me. I want to be very clear that I don't have any problem at all with this.

But just because a person is unfamiliar with people in wheelchairs or unfamiliar with the physical abilities they may or may not have shouldn't affect the very manner in which they talk to them. Like I said, "Oooh, all by yourself?!" "Way to go, Champ!", while giving me a thumbs up is not how a person acknowledges another person whom they regard as an intellectual or societal equal. Do you disagree?

Someone doesn't need to be informed about too much regarding SCI in order to simply treat, and communicate with, a person in a wheelchair as a co-equal; as a fellow competent adult member of society. "Hey man, I gotta admit I've never seen someone move quite as nimbly as you in a wheelchair before." Or something similar. It ain't hard.

Look, it's been established time after time that there are two opposing camps on how one decides to respond in ANY given situation, and not just one like yours, ATG. I can CLEARLY see your point of view, but I simply don't agree with your philosophy on how you handle yourself under these circumstances. Only because I have a sneaky suspicion that many of the people we all meet are coming in contact with a WC user for the FIRST TIME EVER in their lives. So, when they attempt to try and open a dialogue of conversation to us, maybe it can come across as one of a parent speaking to a child.

But here's the kicker folks, once that line of communication has been extended, no matter how OFFENSIVE to us it may be perceived, isn't it our responsibility to be the UDULT and respond back in a clear, concise, and dare I say respectful manner, in order to allow that person to see that they're actually talking to a peer, who just so happens to also be disabled.

Once you take their dialogue as offensive and spit it back in their face, do you think that persons gonna want to even TRY extend to open any sort of dialogue the next go around? I doubt it.

For me anyway, your not exactly HELPING the cause . . . in fact, far from it.

I can agree with this. If you read my story, I say that the point in telling it wasn't because of anything especially offensive this particular guy did or said. I said it was the ubiquity with which such incidences occur. Normally I do not handle such situations in the manner I described in my story. Not at all. Usually I either brush it off or do exactly as you describe: respond back in a clear, concise and respectful manner; in the hopes that the person will realize that I am a competent, fully intelligent adult who also happens to be disabled. But I am human and after so many times, and considering that I was exhausted and not in a very "patient" mood, this man's words got to me. So I merely attempted to explain to him why.

What Q said √

The only time I have ever barked at someone was in a pub not long after I came out of rehab. I was on my way back to my friends after using the bathroom. I came down the ramp from the upper level where it was situated and this bloke stopped me and insisted on shaking my hand. I gave him the privilege just to get away from him and then he said, "The toilets are down there" and pointed down the pub to where my friends were. I offered my hand to shake his again but snubbed him and pointed to where I had just come from and calmly explained, "No they are up that ramp on the next level you twat".

Oh, I tell a lie, there was this other occasion I have just remembered:

The only other time I have barked at someone was on a hill outside a bar on Sunset Boulevard. This schmoozie alleged record executive had invited my two friends and I back to his house. It was obvious he was coked up to the high heavens and wanted to flatter one of my friends into bed. Me and my other friend knew it was a bad idea and were hanging outside looking in shop windows discussing what a cock he was when I suddenly started moving up the hill. His car was parked further up and he had come out of the bar in a hurry to get us back to his place. I grabbed the wheels, twisted around and managed to punch his chin and calmly said, "What the ƒuck are you doing you .unt?"

I think generally the best thing to do is give everyone a fair chance, let them say their thing to you and absorb it, respond in articulate way,try to educate them if they are wrong whilst being friendly and polite . The chances are they are going to tell their friends they met a really nice person in a wheelchair and saw them do something they didn't know was possible or learnt something new. We can only hope this helps to water down the curiosity and nervousness some people have towards us.

(bolding mine)

That is exactly what I was trying to do.

[dancin' johnny]

Yeah I know that Troph.

[josiejose]

I grew up with SCI - that means my personality and manners were all formed while I already had my SCI - which is a little different than many on this forum. My parents were strict in their view on how I should deal with issues like this. They felt that like it or not, I was an ambassador for every other person with a disability that the public would meet, and the way the next person would be treated would be influenced by the way I interacted. When total strangers gave me gifts or tried to push me without asking, my parents always taught me to be GRACIOUS and you cannot be blamed for the douchey responses of others.

That's not to say I rolled over and took all the insanity that the general public dishes out on a regular basis. I think you, as a relatively new wheelchair-user, are probably more aware of this behaviour, and perhaps more affected by it because it's novel. Believe it or not, you stop caring so much about it after awhile. My approach to situations like yours is to be gracious, polite and firm about my boundaries.

• The first thing is to remember that the person who has said the offensive thing to you is ALSO a person. Their poor judgement does not give you licence to treat them poorly in return. As such, it's important to ensure that you treat them the way you'd treat anyone, even if they've hurt your feelings. In this situation - like it or not - you are an ambassador and your behaviour may influence this douchebag's treatment of the next wheelchair user they meet (which might be you!)
• People are stupid and lack judgement all the time and to all sorts of people. Perhaps having a disability makes the target of the poor judgement more obvious - but ask any visibly pregnant woman or person with a facial difference (like a birthmark or a burn) how they are treated in public and you'll find it happens to them too. Give them the benefit of the doubt, speak clearly and (as far as possible) without emotion. Whatever that person said is NOT about you - it's about them and their baggage and/or ignorance.
• Nobody likes to be called out in public, no matter how much they deserve it. You are FAR more likely to get your point across by pointing out the right way and letting the person make the conclusion themselves (that what they did isn't right) than if you embarrass them in public. Focus on highlighting how you would like to be treated, not how they screwed up.
• Check your attitude at the door. Like someone else on this post said, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. ESPECIALLY given the rather negative stereotype many have of wheelchair users as "chippy" or having a chip on their shoulder, don't feed into it by losing your cool. Kill them with kindness, or (in the right situation), make a joke out of it. Sometimes mild sarcasm can work on the right person. If I'm feeling a little annoyed at hearing "Don't break the speed limit!" a half-dozen times a day, I might jokingly say to the right person, "Thanks! I haven't heard that one yet... today." With a big smile, of course.
• Learn what to ignore and what to address. This comes with time and personal preference. I can't say I've ever stopped and corrected anyone unless they've asked my opinion, but there are times when it's so blatant that you have to say something. Weigh it out in your mind - will this person bother to listen? Is there enough time to tell them? (This is particularly relevant when people hold doors open and block them. I always want to stop and teach people how to hold a door open but there just isn't the time in that interaction!) Will this person be embarassed (and thus not react well)?
• When you react, be firm, be honest, state the facts and make direct eye contact. For example, say "That's not how I look at it. I don't think of myself in [insert type of negative comment here] terms" instead of "I can't believe you'd say that! You are so insensitive!"
  For example, someone might say, "Gosh it must be so hard for you. I think I'd want to kill myself if I ever became handicapped like that. It's just so depressing."
  To which you could say:
  "I don't see myself in those terms. Sure there were hard things about my accident but my life is pretty normal now. It's hard to know that there are people who find my life depressing though." (optional pickup line: "Maybe you wouldn't see it that way if you got to know me better." LOL)

Have you ever had a time when you were consulted about wheelchair accessibility for a place (such as a company) and when you point out some problem spots, they dismiss your recommendations, saying "Nah, it's fine," making you wonder why you were even there?

I once had a guy run across the street and ask me if I could give him some feedback on the newly-installed parking meters for the lot. He was super proud of them - solar powered, SMS-capable... clearly they were a big step up in his mind. So when I wheeled up to the one he asked me to look at, I immediately realized a few things - the meter was installed on top of a plinth about 1.5 ft high, and about 2 ft wide... so the meter itself was set far back enough that I couldn't reach the coin or credit card slots. It was also a sunny day and we were at a tourist beach community, and the meter was installed with no canopy - so only a person who could stand in front of the digital display (blocking the direct sun) could see the display properly. From my vantage point at 3.5 ft off the ground, the digital display looked blank except when shaded.

I told the guy what I found, and his body language closed up. He had hoped I'd give him a shining review, but that's not what I'd experienced. I asked what he thought he'd do, and described some easy fixes I thought would solve the problems. His response was, "well, they are already installed, we're not going to take them apart again just to solve your problem." I was a little annoyed, I decided that I wasn't going to let him off that easy. I explained that I'm often paid for my consultation services, and I'm giving him my expert opinion in the same spirit in which it was asked for (kindly overlooking that he was actually wanting a token approval). I asked him that he kindly not refer to requesting my advice unless he was willing to report my feedback, and that I would be communicating my feedback to the city's access committee and mayor & council. Then I smiled, thanked him and wished him a nice day.

This happens. As long as the ADA and various social movements have made wheelchair access a marketing value, people will seek to have their developments rubber stamped. Beware being asked for your opinion on things - sometimes a pre-emptive "I only give my feedback where it will be recorded and a process for taking action exists" (or something like that that's suitable for less formal requests) is helpful so that people know you aren't willing to just rubber-stamp something. It's not a reason to get upset, just refuse to play their game.

Re: the last situation - I've not had people shut me out, but I have learned to recognize when someone is willing or unwilling to learn at that moment. Avoiding humiliation or embarassment is key. Humility is as well - keep in mind you are just learning this too. Try saying something like, "Hey - I think maybe we got off on the wrong foot when I responded to your comment yesterday. I try to help people around me learn about living with a disability but I know I can come on strong (note you aren't apologizing for the CONTENT here). What do you think?" Listen to what they say - maybe you'll find out why they took offense, deal with the real reason and gain an ally in the process.

Anyway. This will happen time and time again. The most important thing is to not let it bother you. It says more about them than it does about you.

Most of all, give yourself a break sometimes. There are days when it seems like AB's are all out to get me and even the most innocent of comments seem to reinforce the stereotypes I'm tired of fighting against. These are days that sometimes I'm not as polite and firm as I wish I could be, and I give myself a break when I don't respond at my best, because I'm human too.

[Priority Seatin]

Thanks for your input, Josiejose. It was very helpful.

In all honesty, I often regret the reactions I have to some people out there (including a recent situation that happened the other day). What gets me though, is when responding gracefully and politely – sometimes even OVER politely – can still set some people off. Some people seem to be quite sensitive when their knowledge about people with disabilities is questioned, no matter how gentle you put it. Some people are weird.

I try to be as patient and gracious and [insert whatever adjective may apply] as possible, sometimes overdoing it a bit to be on the safe side. But when people respond to it with cruelty, that really bugs me sometimes. You'd be smiling and telling them, "Have a nice day" and they'd respond with a scowl and a "[bleep] you." That's... well, to be blunt, that's crap.

The last situation about "rubber stamping" is interesting because that was what happened to a friend of mine in Newfoundland. She laments not having her recommendations taken seriously (but relishes in getting paid regardless, haha).

[A trophy guy]

ATG...he wasn't being rude, uninformed as to the differing levels of abilities most chair users have; yes, not knowing how to feel about your independence, embarrassed to ask, yes...so he did his best, you could have been his first...it isn't easy for either "side."

Most people see high level chair users; usually in hospital or being cared for, not many actually see; even know, anyone, that is highly active in a chair. It's gotten much better in the last 30+ yrs, our exposure thru tv, the disabled games, etc., but each of us "cripples" have/are different.

Once in country, in chair, our perspectives, sight, changes. We notice the differences, abilities, with clear, more compassionate hearts...our advantage is we live, breath, feel this every moment. Those not of us, around us; little or not at all, have the luxury of a "normal" body, taken for granted as they walk/run about unimpeded. Until taken away, did any of us see as we do now...how could we...how can they.

I don't doubt your feeling him rude...I did also, long ago...honey attracts best, vinegar often chases away. It is very important to stand our ground and as important to relax, extend a hand, a simple positive explanation, to enlighten...so that your next brother/sister that is chair bound not be misunderstood, talked to in an uninformed "rude" manner; it's our responsibility for those that follow in our tire tracks.

Next time you might reply...thanks for noticing, I do okay for myself

Deal with the assholes as best you can, the rest try and at least be polite...until they're not, when this happens it's like wishing, wasted time/breath.

During the last job I worked at, near 6 yrs, as a development manager/chief system architect, leading design teams, risk management sessions, client meetings, mentoring a dozen developers, well most of my team knew me quite well "at work", only a few had seen my non-work life; or cared to for that matter, it's to much of a bother/chore.

At a staff meeting someone quipped "well everyone puts their pants on the same way", I smiled, chuckled to myself...our president; who knew me quite well smiled back...said, well not all of us...she said sure we do...he replied...not our fearless Jer, he's got people that do that for him...she got this odd look, stood up, came over to me, said damn I forget about your chair, it never occurred to me someone has to help you get ready each day, I feel so stupid...I replied, no worries I can always use a good pair of hands we were drinkin n playing pool that next friday...all's cool if you want it to be, see this is learned behavior; playin 9-ball n drinkin shots from a chair, one that rolls!

Seeya round the forum, old fart sayin

I never said he was being rude. I know this guy absolutely meant nothing bad at all by his comments, just the opposite; he was complimenting me. I want to be very clear that I don't have any problem at all with this.

But just because a person is unfamiliar with people in wheelchairs or unfamiliar with the physical abilities they may or may not have shouldn't affect the very manner in which they talk to them. Like I said, "Oooh, all by yourself?!" "Way to go, Champ!", while giving me a thumbs up is not how a person acknowledges another person whom they regard as an intellectual or societal equal. Do you disagree?

Someone doesn't need to be informed about too much regarding SCI in order to simply treat, and communicate with, a person in a wheelchair as a co-equal; as a fellow competent adult member of society. "Hey man, I gotta admit I've never seen someone move quite as nimbly as you in a wheelchair before." Or something similar. It ain't hard.

Look, it's been established time after time that there are two opposing camps on how one decides to respond in ANY given situation, and not just one like yours, ATG. I can CLEARLY see your point of view, but I simply don't agree with your philosophy on how you handle yourself under these circumstances. Only because I have a sneaky suspicion that many of the people we all meet are coming in contact with a WC user for the FIRST TIME EVER in their lives. So, when they attempt to try and open a dialogue of conversation to us, maybe it can come across as one of a parent speaking to a child.

But here's the kicker folks, once that line of communication has been extended, no matter how OFFENSIVE to us it may be perceived, isn't it our responsibility to be the UDULT and respond back in a clear, concise, and dare I say respectful manner, in order to allow that person to see that they're actually talking to a peer, who just so happens to also be disabled.

Once you take their dialogue as offensive and spit it back in their face, do you think that persons gonna want to even TRY extend to open any sort of dialogue the next go around? I doubt it.

For me anyway, your not exactly HELPING the cause . . . in fact, far from it.

"Once you take their dialogue as offensive and spit it back in their face, do you think that persons gonna want to even TRY extend to open any sort of dialogue the next go around? I doubt it.

For me anyway, your not exactly HELPING the cause . . . in fact, far from it."

I DO take issue with this part of your post, however. For starters, the way you characterize the interaction is off. "Spit it back in their face"? C'mon, there was nothing so vitriolic or nasty as this that took place in the jacuzzi in my story.

If we can't politely and respectfully engage a person in dialogue as to why such behavior is offensive to us, then we are relegated to having such things happen over and over, time and time again.

It's not my fault that this guy wasn't willing (or able) to listen to me long enough to understand why he should do things differently next time. If he had, then he would have understood and "next time around" the dialogue would have been better, not absent. But either way, hopefully he will think twice about engaging in this kind of dialogue "next time around".

Edited by A trophy guy, 21 December 2011 - 07:26 AM.

[Edinburgh Colin]

Thanks for that josiejose, beautifully put and applies to so many situations in life whether disability related or not.
Good to see you posting too,
Regards,
EC

Edited by Edinburgh Colin, 21 December 2011 - 01:00 PM.

[scaldedcat]

For a guy who seems to run into so many contencious situation's, the fact that your never wrong or have said or done the wrong thing in any of these situations is quite amazing.

Edited by scaldedcat, 21 December 2011 - 12:19 PM.

[greybeard]

That was eloquently put Josiejose. Thanks for posting it.

[wheeliebear75]

I want to share a recent story which I think perfectly captures the attitude, the mindset, that a large percentage of people have (some consciously, some unconsciously) towards those with disabilities; in particular those who use wheelchairs. The fitness center where I train has a jacuzzi in the mens locker room which I enjoy after working out, time permitting. This particular day, as I was approaching the jacuzzi to get in I notice one other bather in the tub. It' a middle aged man and he is intently staring at me.

This, in and of itself, is not unusual. I am used to being stared at. He is watching my every move, and doing it in such a way as to make me avoid eye contact with him at all costs. From experience, I knew that the second I made eye contact, the offers of "Hey, you need me to help ya there?" would be coming. Anyway I got myself out of my chair and into the jacuzzi, where I could FEEL this guy's eyes still on me. Finally, I could take it no more (in reality it was probably only 30sec) and glanced over his way. He was looking at me with a silly grin, and he said, "Well, I see you did that ALL BY YOURSELF there!" "Way to go!" And he called me "Champ" and gave me a massive thumbs ups!

At first I just brushed it off and ignored him. But I was really exhausted that day, I just wanted to relax in the jacuzzi and this shit just got under my skin (which I think it had justifiable reason to). So I turned to him, and without any rancor or anger told him that speaking to me in such a way was actually offensive to me. Before I could go any further, he indignantly jerked back and rolled his eyes and basically shut down any further communication.

But I felt that this exchange was not the exchange of fellow adults, not the interaction of societal peers. Sure, he wasn't intending to offend me, he just saw me in a completely different respect. And THAT is at the heart of much of the discrimination experienced by the disabled, the able-bodied simply do not regard those who suffer severe disabilities, such as those who use wheelchairs, as equal citizens worthy of the same respect and equality. The worst part about this story I've told isn't anything particular to the story itself; it's how common such stories are.

Believe it or not ATG I do "get" WHAT irritated you so much...the being talked to like a 5yr old who just learned to tie his shoes. HOWEVER...I'm also sure that a simple "Uh...thanks? But I do this all the time." Course I would have just taken a bow & THEN explained that I do this & all sorts of other too. And then nicely point out their speaking to me like a child by asking if they were an elementary school teacher...(which would generally result in something like "No I'm a _____. Why'd you think I was a teacher?")....thereby giving ME an opening to point out their faux pa(sp?).

There are a lot of things we as the disabled can do to help break down the barriers that exist between US & the AB's so they stop seeing us as DIFFERENT.....of course the problem is that just as a person will remember the child who ruined their dinner by screaming in the restaurant yet forgets all about the other 15 kids who were quietly & calmly eating with their parents....people will remember "the angry gimp" or the one who "had a chip on their shoulder" a whole lot longer than they will the person in a wheelchair who smiled & joked around with them.

[josiejose]

Thanks for your input, Josiejose. It was very helpful.

In all honesty, I often regret the reactions I have to some people out there (including a recent situation that happened the other day). What gets me though, is when responding gracefully and politely – sometimes even OVER politely – can still set some people off. Some people seem to be quite sensitive when their knowledge about people with disabilities is questioned, no matter how gentle you put it. Some people are weird.

I try to be as patient and gracious and [insert whatever adjective may apply] as possible, sometimes overdoing it a bit to be on the safe side. But when people respond to it with cruelty, that really bugs me sometimes. You'd be smiling and telling them, "Have a nice day" and they'd respond with a scowl and a "[bleep] you." That's... well, to be blunt, that's crap.

I'd argue though, PS, that this is true of EVERYONE. A friend of mine was out Christmas shopping the other day and ran into more than her fair share of douchebags. Anybody at any moment may have the pleasure of dealing with nasty people... it's one of the sad facts of human variability.

It's true that having a visible difference does seem to be a magnet for all of the strange, well-meaning, and rude people in the world, but I find I have more trouble when people are trying to be nice and helpful - I always find that it's the helpful people who won't let me tell them how to help me, it's the nice people who hold doors open when I don't need them to, and then block the doorway with their bodies, It's the well-meaning who sneak up behind me in public and start pushing me without asking, causing me to fall forward out of my chair. Give me a rude ###### any day - I've honed my responses and I know how to tell someone firmly and politely how to back the f*@k off. It's the sweet nice people who are really hard to figure out - but again, it's more about their need to help than it is about your need for their help.

I once was out with a friend of mine (also a wheelchair user who happens to have blue eyes and blonde hair like me) minding our own business, when a middle-aged lady came up with a camera out of her pocket and approached us. I knew what was coming but my friend - then just 18 months post-injury - was really taken aback. The lady was super friendly and approached us as if we were good friends of hers (which we weren't). She said, "You guys just look so great together, can I take your picture?"

It never ceases to amaze me why people find taking pictures of me in my chair (particularly with other people in chairs) so gratifying. This hadn't happened to my friend before, but it had happened to me. As I looked at her, the woman said, "It's just that, you know, I was in a wheelchair for four weeks once when I broke my knee, and it would have been so great to have had some friends like you guys do!" Which just makes me crazy. I looked right at her as she held her camera up to her face and said very firmly, "No. That's just not appropriate." She was a little dumbfounded, which was enough time for us to get away without argument.

Anyway. There are wierd/rude/crazy people everywhere. Don't write off the human race because more of them run into you. Just learn some verbal dodges and you'll be fine.

[Kwag_Myers]

I'd argue though, PS, that this is true of EVERYONE. A friend of mine was out Christmas shopping the other day and ran into more than her fair share of douchebags. Anybody at any moment may have the pleasure of dealing with nasty people... it's one of the sad facts of human variability.

I agree. We seem to have our own version of the race card, e.g., "It's because I'm in a wheelchair!". IMHO, there are a lot of hot-heads in this forum. For example, there's the guy who got made because someone in a store asked him if he was in line for the register. Or the lady who was offended because a shop owner greeted her as she came into the store. You can't read through this forum on a regular basis and tell me there isn't credence for the stereotype of an angry crip.

Some of you seem to have a legitimate beef as I read through your posts. But not negative experience with an AB is because of the chair. I often wonder where some of you live, or am I the one dwelling on another planet? ABs are always overly kind and accommodating to me. Come to Michigan, there's lots of empty house at the moment.

[Priority Seatin]

If you want to see a situation that fits this thread quite well, take a look at this blog entry and the lone comment to it: http://yaccessibilit...-etiquette.html

Gave me quite a laugh.

EDIT: Looks like that comment disappears sometimes if you refresh the page. Anyways, the comment was along the lines of "This is a stupid post. You should feel grateful people are taking time out of their day to help you [PWDs]! Stop whining and complaining, you ungrateful people!"

EDIT 2: Re: Josiejose... That camera situation's ridiculousness reminds me of that episode of "What Would You Do?" with the person with dwarfism being photographed at a supermarket. (If you haven't seen that episode, I recommend it. I have no idea how to find a copy of it but it's quite interesting.)

Edited by Priority Seatin, 21 December 2011 - 07:56 PM.

[A trophy guy]

For a guy who seems to run into so many contencious situation's, the fact that your never wrong or have said or done the wrong thing in any of these situations is quite amazing.

SMH. I err just like everyone.

[scaldedcat]

SMH?? Sorry, I'm old.

[wheeliebear75]

As many of you may know from previous posts my mother is an OT by profession. Now Mom's main client is "a quad" from CP not SCI. But when Mom 1st got this client my Mom thought that she could help her client's lack of getting out & doing "normal things" by having her see that although in a wheelchair I still go out, & manage to ignore 99% of the stares & a deal with 90% of the BULL rather well. So we (Myself, a friend of mine who drove me to the Denny's, Mom + her client) got together for lunch while Mom was still "on the clock" & when we were done eating & had payed for our meal MOM was the one who needed to use the restroom, so rather than my Mom taker her client in with her she asked us (the 3 of us) if it'd be OK to just take HERSELF to the ladies room & the client stay with us in the front lobby area. Well wouldn't ya know it...along came a lady I'm sure not MEANING TO be rude came up to the 3 of us having a conversation & speaks to my friend "Oh that is sooo NICE! You brought your little day group out for a special treat.". Luckily before I could even say anything my friend said "Um NO! They're not THAT kind of "SPECIAL" (with her fingers doing the proverbial quotes). Just friends meeting for lunch like everyone else in here who isn't eating alone!". Mind you my friend happens to work WITH developmentally delayed folks as a job coach/bunch of other stuff.....but she works WITH adults who are mentally retarded & socially are forever only around 10-14yrs. (Thankfully my friend knows when TO or NOT TO bring up the TBI )

And I must admit that we all could have (& probably should have ) just "educated her" that we're just having lunch like everyone else & just happen to use wheelchairs.

[lavenderthistle]

SMH?? Sorry, I'm old.

Shaking My Head I learned it from my smarty pants son...

[scaldedcat]

Thanks Lav, I've done it now, poor old ATG is shaking his head with my ignorance of his situation. I feel, however, that I shall live.

[Kwag_Myers]

SMH?? Sorry, I'm old.

UrbanDictionary.com I'm old, too. So I use it all the time.

[lavenderthistle]

Imho...we should all lol, while smh at the general ignorance of peeps...Ty we have each other to lean on ttyl8r, or ttyl...its gr8! Now I'm afk.


BTW, this week has been a chair week....at the grocery store a guy helped me get garlic, he said "tell me what you need and I'll get it for you" he chose good garlic, we chatted about how bad it is to find one clove that spoils the bunch, he opened the bag for me. Plastic bags are really hard for me. He also made the comment that stores don't think about things out of reach when a line stack would be simple instead of a row stack. I thanked him...we both felt better.
Then at the dairy doors I was fighting with some eggnog. A guy helped while laughing about wondering who was going to win the fight.

Yet another person helped me with cheese.

All the guys asked me what I needed, one asked if he was in my way. I had a huge smile. It helped me make it through the staring women who ran into me, then sighed like it was my fault. I played the guilt card (moms are good at that) by apologizing for running in to them. They turned red and left amid apologies.

My faith in humanity is intact, and no one got weird when I told them where I needed to be for them to help. A simple "I can't do it that way, could we switch sides?" Worked perfectly

[edlee]

Great thread ATG,, and some outstanding responses. Kinda why I come here.

The "Guy" has already said that this wasn't his normal way of handling similar situations,, just the one he used on that particular day. And we all have days like that. That he could have handled it more diplomatically is certain,,,, but he could have thrown a couple of F bombs at the guy, too,,, and he didn't. To me,,, on one of my bad days,, that would be the ultimate in restraint.

I think that the consensus is that restraint, and a friendly demeanor,, in such circumstances,, might improve ,, what might be called,,, our societal image. But ,, hey,, if we don't go off on somebody once in a while,, how mainstream can we be???
ed

[scaldedcat]

Ed you old Scorpio, I knew you were a good fella, I just noticed we have the same birthday (just a couple of years apart) and our injury levels are the same. Now that I think about it (my brain cells are rapidly diminishing), I do remember the lovely Bday messages me both received last month). Me thinks you got my share of the patience gene lol

But as for my ATG post, I really think sometimes the need to feel "normal" and be treated as though the chair is not even there (which is great) can sometimes override the genuine kindness of people. As we always say on this site, everyone is different, everyone's disability is different. And this apply's to the general population, they're all different. And even though two people who are honestly trying to be decent and kind in a situation like ATG mentioned, may handle it in different ways, one may be what he would regard as appropriate, the other could be the example he gave. But I believe that sometime's we can become a bit precious about what someone says or the way they say it, and I think unless they are intentionally being rude, we should probably cut them a bit of slack and be grateful at least for their good intentions.

Edited by scaldedcat, 23 December 2011 - 03:05 AM.

[isobar]

ATG...he wasn't being rude, uninformed as to the differing levels of abilities most chair users have; yes, not knowing how to feel about your independence, embarrassed to ask, yes...so he did his best, you could have been his first...it isn't easy for either "side."

Most people see high level chair users; usually in hospital or being cared for, not many actually see; even know, anyone, that is highly active in a chair. It's gotten much better in the last 30+ yrs, our exposure thru tv, the disabled games, etc., but each of us "cripples" have/are different.

Once in country, in chair, our perspectives, sight, changes. We notice the differences, abilities, with clear, more compassionate hearts...our advantage is we live, breath, feel this every moment. Those not of us, around us; little or not at all, have the luxury of a "normal" body, taken for granted as they walk/run about unimpeded. Until taken away, did any of us see as we do now...how could we...how can they.

I don't doubt your feeling him rude...I did also, long ago...honey attracts best, vinegar often chases away. It is very important to stand our ground and as important to relax, extend a hand, a simple positive explanation, to enlighten...so that your next brother/sister that is chair bound not be misunderstood, talked to in an uninformed "rude" manner; it's our responsibility for those that follow in our tire tracks.

Next time you might reply...thanks for noticing, I do okay for myself

Deal with the assholes as best you can, the rest try and at least be polite...until they're not, when this happens it's like wishing, wasted time/breath.

During the last job I worked at, near 6 yrs, as a development manager/chief system architect, leading design teams, risk management sessions, client meetings, mentoring a dozen developers, well most of my team knew me quite well "at work", only a few had seen my non-work life; or cared to for that matter, it's to much of a bother/chore.

At a staff meeting someone quipped "well everyone puts their pants on the same way", I smiled, chuckled to myself...our president; who knew me quite well smiled back...said, well not all of us...she said sure we do...he replied...not our fearless Jer, he's got people that do that for him...she got this odd look, stood up, came over to me, said damn I forget about your chair, it never occurred to me someone has to help you get ready each day, I feel so stupid...I replied, no worries I can always use a good pair of hands we were drinkin n playing pool that next friday...all's cool if you want it to be, see this is learned behavior; playin 9-ball n drinkin shots from a chair, one that rolls!

Seeya round the forum, old fart sayin

I never said he was being rude. I know this guy absolutely meant nothing bad at all by his comments, just the opposite; he was complimenting me. I want to be very clear that I don't have any problem at all with this.

But just because a person is unfamiliar with people in wheelchairs or unfamiliar with the physical abilities they may or may not have shouldn't affect the very manner in which they talk to them. Like I said, "Oooh, all by yourself?!" "Way to go, Champ!", while giving me a thumbs up is not how a person acknowledges another person whom they regard as an intellectual or societal equal. Do you disagree?

Someone doesn't need to be informed about too much regarding SCI in order to simply treat, and communicate with, a person in a wheelchair as a co-equal; as a fellow competent adult member of society. "Hey man, I gotta admit I've never seen someone move quite as nimbly as you in a wheelchair before." Or something similar. It ain't hard.

Look, it's been established time after time that there are two opposing camps on how one decides to respond in ANY given situation, and not just one like yours, ATG. I can CLEARLY see your point of view, but I simply don't agree with your philosophy on how you handle yourself under these circumstances. Only because I have a sneaky suspicion that many of the people we all meet are coming in contact with a WC user for the FIRST TIME EVER in their lives. So, when they attempt to try and open a dialogue of conversation to us, maybe it can come across as one of a parent speaking to a child.

But here's the kicker folks, once that line of communication has been extended, no matter how OFFENSIVE to us it may be perceived, isn't it our responsibility to be the UDULT and respond back in a clear, concise, and dare I say respectful manner, in order to allow that person to see that they're actually talking to a peer, who just so happens to also be disabled.

Once you take their dialogue as offensive and spit it back in their face, do you think that persons gonna want to even TRY extend to open any sort of dialogue the next go around? I doubt it.

For me anyway, your not exactly HELPING the cause . . . in fact, far from it.

Well put sir!!!!!

[isobar]

@josiejose


Very well put !!!!

[A trophy guy]

If someone never knows that their behavior is inappropriate/offensive, they will never have any reason to change it.

[edlee]

You don't thik that engaging him in an adult, intelligent conversation, instead,, would have made an even more profound impact? As you well know,, noone likes being informed of their shortcomings. Some simply comtinue to deny them,, ignoring all else. On the other hand,, seeing that they were mistaken without being told,, is remembered long after the fact. AND may even be shared with THEIR aquaintances. My guess is that what was shared by this particular gentleman was a bit less complimentary to you,,, and to the wheelchaired world in general.
ed

[paul1404]

ATG...he wasn't being rude, uninformed as to the differing levels of abilities most chair users have; yes, not knowing how to feel about your independence, embarrassed to ask, yes...so he did his best, you could have been his first...it isn't easy for either "side."

Most people see high level chair users; usually in hospital or being cared for, not many actually see; even know, anyone, that is highly active in a chair. It's gotten much better in the last 30+ yrs, our exposure thru tv, the disabled games, etc., but each of us "cripples" have/are different.

Once in country, in chair, our perspectives, sight, changes. We notice the differences, abilities, with clear, more compassionate hearts...our advantage is we live, breath, feel this every moment. Those not of us, around us; little or not at all, have the luxury of a "normal" body, taken for granted as they walk/run about unimpeded. Until taken away, did any of us see as we do now...how could we...how can they.

I don't doubt your feeling him rude...I did also, long ago...honey attracts best, vinegar often chases away. It is very important to stand our ground and as important to relax, extend a hand, a simple positive explanation, to enlighten...so that your next brother/sister that is chair bound not be misunderstood, talked to in an uninformed "rude" manner; it's our responsibility for those that follow in our tire tracks.

Next time you might reply...thanks for noticing, I do okay for myself

Deal with the assholes as best you can, the rest try and at least be polite...until they're not, when this happens it's like wishing, wasted time/breath.

During the last job I worked at, near 6 yrs, as a development manager/chief system architect, leading design teams, risk management sessions, client meetings, mentoring a dozen developers, well most of my team knew me quite well "at work", only a few had seen my non-work life; or cared to for that matter, it's to much of a bother/chore.

At a staff meeting someone quipped "well everyone puts their pants on the same way", I smiled, chuckled to myself...our president; who knew me quite well smiled back...said, well not all of us...she said sure we do...he replied...not our fearless Jer, he's got people that do that for him...she got this odd look, stood up, came over to me, said damn I forget about your chair, it never occurred to me someone has to help you get ready each day, I feel so stupid...I replied, no worries I can always use a good pair of hands we were drinkin n playing pool that next friday...all's cool if you want it to be, see this is learned behavior; playin 9-ball n drinkin shots from a chair, one that rolls!

Seeya round the forum, old fart sayin

I never said he was being rude. I know this guy absolutely meant nothing bad at all by his comments, just the opposite; he was complimenting me. I want to be very clear that I don't have any problem at all with this.

But just because a person is unfamiliar with people in wheelchairs or unfamiliar with the physical abilities they may or may not have shouldn't affect the very manner in which they talk to them. Like I said, "Oooh, all by yourself?!" "Way to go, Champ!", while giving me a thumbs up is not how a person acknowledges another person whom they regard as an intellectual or societal equal. Do you disagree?

Someone doesn't need to be informed about too much regarding SCI in order to simply treat, and communicate with, a person in a wheelchair as a co-equal; as a fellow competent adult member of society. "Hey man, I gotta admit I've never seen someone move quite as nimbly as you in a wheelchair before." Or something similar. It ain't hard.

Look, it's been established time after time that there are two opposing camps on how one decides to respond in ANY given situation, and not just one like yours, ATG. I can CLEARLY see your point of view, but I simply don't agree with your philosophy on how you handle yourself under these circumstances. Only because I have a sneaky suspicion that many of the people we all meet are coming in contact with a WC user for the FIRST TIME EVER in their lives. So, when they attempt to try and open a dialogue of conversation to us, maybe it can come across as one of a parent speaking to a child.

But here's the kicker folks, once that line of communication has been extended, no matter how OFFENSIVE to us it may be perceived, isn't it our responsibility to be the UDULT and respond back in a clear, concise, and dare I say respectful manner, in order to allow that person to see that they're actually talking to a peer, who just so happens to also be disabled.

Once you take their dialogue as offensive and spit it back in their face, do you think that persons gonna want to even TRY extend to open any sort of dialogue the next go around? I doubt it.

For me anyway, your not exactly HELPING the cause . . . in fact, far from it.

Spoken like a true Champ!

[scaldedcat]

"If someone never knows that their behavior is inappropriate/offensive, they will never have any reason to change it".

I think this could be a major part of the problem ATG, you seem to be the adjudicator on the so called
"inappropriate/offensive behaviour". Just as you find their behaviour to be unacceptable, there are plenty who don't. A genuine show of respect and kindness by this man, was condemned by you because of the way you found his actions. Big deal if he gave a "thumbs up" or whatever, he may not have had the best communication skills but he was PRAISING you for God's sake. But for you, this is not good enough if not done to your standards. There are some nasty aholes in this world who deserve our condemnation, I think you should worry more about meeting up with there ilk then condemning a genuinely good person, trying to show his admiration for something he had probably never seen before and was extremely impressed with.

[A trophy guy]

"If someone never knows that their behavior is inappropriate/offensive, they will never have any reason to change it".

I think this could be a major part of the problem ATG, you seem to be the adjudicator on the so called
"inappropriate/offensive behaviour". Just as you find their behaviour to be unacceptable, there are plenty who don't. A genuine show of respect and kindness by this man, was condemned by you because of the way you found his actions. Big deal if he gave a "thumbs up" or whatever, he may not have had the best communication skills but he was PRAISING you for God's sake. But for you, this is not good enough if not done to your standards. There are some nasty aholes in this world who deserve our condemnation, I think you should worry more about meeting up with there ilk then condemning a genuinely good person, trying to show his admiration for something he had probably never seen before and was extremely impressed with.

The nasty assholes out there aren't going to change their ways; regardless of the efforts made by anyone else. It is precisely because this guy was "praising" me, precisely because this guy wasn't intending anything negative, that he should be made aware of the inappropriateness of his behavior.

*and you can say what you want here; but I wager that anyone with an ounce of self-respect would have found this man's remarks and attitude offensive. Now the level of offense is of course debatable but I find any arguing of whether or not it was in fact offensive to be disingenuous.