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Dla Changes: Tanni Grey-Thompson And Iain Duncan Smith

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59 replies to this topic

#1 greybeard

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 04:19 PM

The crossbench peer and former Paralympian Baroness Grey-Thompson questioned the work and pensions secretary over changes to the Disability Living Allowance.

She said some people were "terrified" about the proposals, and claimed up to 500,000 people could lose out.

Iain Duncan Smith said the reform was intended to offer a "sustainable" allowance that would go to the right people, with some losers and some gainers.

Video clip here : http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-16613900


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#2 pikey

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 06:10 PM

I have nothing against benefit reform lets face it I am sure we all know those who really should not be taking money from those who really need it. I will take any medical, I have nothing to hide.
  • Doodle likes this
If I fall out of my wheelchair in the woods would anybody hear me?

#3 Doodle

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 09:53 PM

I agree pikey!
Everything will be alright in the end, if it's not alright then it's not the end!

#4 Tinbasher

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 01:30 PM

The new benefit says if you can wheel 50mtrs on the flat then you are "mobile" so no pip mob for us.

Medical every year even for complete sci "in case you have got better". How cost effective is that?

You can get on a horse!? Forget it your nearly normal :-)

In a sense its easy to assess whether a para can walk but most other disabilities are not so clear cut. This change is totally dismantling what we have achieved over the last 25yrs.

The governments own figure for DLA fraud? 0.1%. That's zero point one.
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GRAVITY. I fought the law and the law won!

#5 catmint

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 01:41 PM

Totally agree Tin.

Firstly, if there is benefit fraud then scrapping DLA is not the way to go about stopping it. This is about saving money,pure and simple.

Secondly, I am amazed by how many SCIs seem to think this will not include them. I have heard time and again 'I have been awarded DLA for life so I'm not bothered'. WRONG....DLA will cease to exist and EVERYONE will be reassessed for the new benefit PIP.

#6 pikey

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 02:34 PM

The new benefit says if you can wheel 50mtrs on the flat then you are "mobile" so no pip mob for us.

Medical every year even for complete sci "in case you have got better". How cost effective is that?

You can get on a horse!? Forget it your nearly normal :-)

In a sense its easy to assess whether a para can walk but most other disabilities are not so clear cut. This change is totally dismantling what we have achieved over the last 25yrs.

The governments own figure for DLA fraud? 0.1%. That's zero point one.


I don't know many people who cannot push their chairs 50 mtrs on the flat! Motability will stop and almost everyone will be stuck at home or forced to use public transport. If you work and drive your buggered! From what you have written and the way I read it it's just cost cutting.

It will be a sad day for us all when cost cutting for genuine disabled people rules common sense.
If I fall out of my wheelchair in the woods would anybody hear me?

#7 Edinburgh Colin

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 03:18 PM


The new benefit says if you can wheel 50mtrs on the flat then you are "mobile" so no pip mob for us.

Medical every year even for complete sci "in case you have got better". How cost effective is that?

You can get on a horse!? Forget it your nearly normal :-)

In a sense its easy to assess whether a para can walk but most other disabilities are not so clear cut. This change is totally dismantling what we have achieved over the last 25yrs.

The governments own figure for DLA fraud? 0.1%. That's zero point one.


I don't know many people who cannot push their chairs 50 mtrs on the flat! Motability will stop and almost everyone will be stuck at home or forced to use public transport. If you work and drive your buggered! From what you have written and the way I read it it's just cost cutting.

It will be a sad day for us all when cost cutting for genuine disabled people rules common sense.


And if we're stuck inside and short of money then we are not out in the community causing trouble about access and modified facilities are we! How dam convenient that is too.
Out of sight, out of mind!
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#8 curbyi

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 03:43 PM

Yes saw the discussion between TGT v IDS on the excellent daily politics.
I would question whether she's crossbench considering her previous appearances for Labour Party manifesto political broadcasts but anyway...
I am caught between 2 camps I totally agree that there is a need for benefit reform because of the client state constructed under Gordon Brown where profligate spending has contributed to some of our current problems.
This idea that there is not a proportion of the population who view the idea of working as madness are I believe deluded.
Chawner family/Jeremy Kyle's contestant types have a standard response when challenged about claiming benefits '' why would I work when I can get XYZ for nothing" I sit screaming at the telly begging the interviewer to raise such question
relating to honesty, personal integrity and respect but it never happens. I laugh now when I used to feel ashamed to need to ask for financial assistance following my accident, I don't any more.
Anyway back to my point.
The often stated low levels of benefit fraud quoted at less than 1% relate I believe to DLA.
This is not unsurprising because no amount of money would compensate me for the pain in filling out this tomb of a document Get to the end of that thing and you deserve money!
Incapacity benefit and income support are where the problem lies and its the politicians fault anyway because they invented incapacity benefit to massage massive unemployment under the Tories.
I do feel it's right for reassessment take place, but the way the government has done it is terribly wrong ATHOS? have a financial incentive to be less than honest in its appraisal of someone's ability so they are always going to come down the side of yes they are fit for work rather than no they are not.

Disability comes in all shapes and sizes, anyone looking at me knows I'm pretty f****d and I have sailed through the 1st part of my assessment.*
Today I actually received my letter stating that my incapacity benefit and income support which has been replaced by the new benefits have actually resulted in increased money by £14 a month.
So you could say that they are in my case being honest when they stay they will give the worst affected more.
However how do you assess people with the non visible problems ? It's a difficult thing to do and I believe should have been done with far more thought and consideration and care by health professionals over a longer time period to gather up the scroungers but not punish those in genuine need.
If it works out that those scroungers are no longer able to claim money off the tax payers I believe our current problem of all being labelled benefit scroungers would diminish.
Although I have never been offended by the label because I know that I'm not a benefits scrounger I paid into the system from the day I left school on the off chance that I would one day need help and sadly that day came.
I think as a community we get way too upset about the media frenzy about benefit scroungers, they really are not talking about us they are talking about parasites who want something from nothing.

* I'm sharp as a tack and could easily work (Currently work voluntarily in two roles) were not for the many prejudices in society about disability, sorry it's easier not to employ you, I will get someone else who will be far less hassle.
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If it don't make sense I blame the voice typing software misunderstanding me not my failure to listen in English classes!

#9 sherbs

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 07:53 PM

Curbyi

I am a bit confused with your last paragraph

"i can easily work" etc, I work, but not easily at all. I put all my strength and resources to dragging myself out to work, to pay the mortgage, bills etc, why would you not work if you could "easily work".

I think nowadays we have a system in place to actually make it more easy for disabled people to get back into work, with Access to Work etc, Maybe look into it, you may find you enjoy working again, it gets you out and about and socializing, and keeps the old grey matter ticking.



#10 curbyi

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 02:01 PM

Hi Sherbs
Love your description of yourself wobberly walker.
I do not mean easily work now i mean in a future that stopped thinking medical model and addressed social model of disability.
Second point being a high quad i can have o.k days and to many written off days which in anything other than voluntary sector will not really fly.
Currently studying at home to improve the CV so hopefully in the future an opportunity to work again will arise.
Keep on walking girl.

Cheers Curbyi

Edited by curbyi, 20 January 2012 - 02:11 PM.

If it don't make sense I blame the voice typing software misunderstanding me not my failure to listen in English classes!

#11 Trinity

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 02:16 PM

I thought this link may be interesting, it's about how points are awarded in PIP assessments http://www.disabilit...nce.org/f60.htm in particular this bit ..

Activity 2. Moving around
  • Can move at least 200 metres either (i) unaided; or (ii) using an aid or appliance, other than a wheelchair or a motorised device. - Score 0
  • Can move at least 50 metres but not more than 200 metres either (i) unaided; or (ii) using an aid or appliance, other than a wheelchair or a motorised device. – Score 4
  • Can move up to 50 metres unaided but no further. – Score 8
  • Cannot move up to 50 metres without using an aid or appliance, other than a wheelchair or a motorised device. - Score 10
  • Cannot move up to 50 metres without using a wheelchair propelled by the claimant. - Score 12
  • Cannot move up to 50 metres without using a wheelchair propelled by another person or a motorised device. – Score 15
  • Cannot either (i) move around at all; or (ii) transfer unaided from one seated position to another adjacent seated position. Score15
seems like using a wheelchair is still a lot of points
Looks like the care component is going to be far harder :(

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#12 Tinbasher

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 03:14 PM

True Trin but not enough in itself to get to the high rate mob which one assumes will certainly not be higher that it is now.

They take the view that paras are on the whole independently mobile, this might apply in places with accesfible transport and few hills.

The care element changes are likely to exclude any para from the high rate pip and the low rate pip, the lowest rate of DLA will be abolished.

Anyone who is incomplete and a wobbly walker like me may struggle to get anything.

My objections are not so much to the change but to the methodology (computer based points score by ATOS "health care professionals") I have seen how this has affected many perfectly eligable disabled people with ESA. Appeal and you wait almost a year, if you have a motability car or powerchair it will now go back within weeks rather than after the appeal. Adaptations and all, no compensation if you get reawarded at appeal.

Tin
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#13 Trinity

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 03:33 PM

True Trin but not enough in itself to get to the high rate mob which one assumes will certainly not be higher that it is now.

They take the view that paras are on the whole independently mobile, this might apply in places with accesfible transport and few hills.

The care element changes are likely to exclude any para from the high rate pip and the low rate pip, the lowest rate of DLA will be abolished.

Anyone who is incomplete and a wobbly walker like me may struggle to get anything.

My objections are not so much to the change but to the methodology (computer based points score by ATOS "health care professionals") I have seen how this has affected many perfectly eligable disabled people with ESA. Appeal and you wait almost a year, if you have a motability car or powerchair it will now go back within weeks rather than after the appeal. Adaptations and all, no compensation if you get reawarded at appeal.

Tin


I understood from the site that you need 12 points to qualify for high rate? Is that not the case? I have a limited knowledge in PIP so I may well be wrong.

I think there will be a lot of people who will lose out under the new scheme, the eligibility seems very specific.


Ian Duncan Smith announced £1billion of fraudulent benefit (all, not just DLA) then later there was a very small correction and it was actually less than £1billion in fraud and £5billion in fraud AND ERRORS
The fraud rate in DLA according to DWP is 0.5% due to the amount of evidence needed to qualify, this is the smallest amount in all benefits. The government wants to cut DLA by 20% which means 1 in 5 people who should be entitled will be without



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#14 wheelie182

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 03:35 PM

Well, going by Trins link, I score a big fat zero for the Daily Living Activities.

That is unless they count a wheelchair as "an aid or appliance", which I doubt.

“aid or appliance” means a device to improve either a physical or mental function or both. It includes a prosthesis but does not include an aid or appliance ordinarily used by a person without a physical or mental condition which limits that person’s ability to carry out daily living or mobility activities;


Edited by wheelie182, 20 January 2012 - 03:44 PM.

That's what she said!

#15 Trinity

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 03:52 PM

Well, going by Trins link, I score a big fat zero for the Daily Living Activities.

That is unless they count a wheelchair as "an aid or appliance", which I doubt.

“aid or appliance” means a device to improve either a physical or mental function or both. It includes a prosthesis but does not include an aid or appliance ordinarily used by a person without a physical or mental condition which limits that person’s ability to carry out daily living or mobility activities;


Yeah, I'm struggling with the care bit, I am wondering if shower chairs, catheters stuff for bowels counts as aids and appliances.
All that hard work struggling to cope with everyday activities means we will be penalised! Hopefully things will be reviewed before we all get reassessed (2013?)

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#16 wheelie182

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 04:03 PM

What about those of us who have chosen to make our lives more difficult in order not to have to have depressing/unsightly disabled equipment/aids around our house?

They need to change it so its not based on whether you can do something unaided, but how much longer or more difficult it is compared to an AB person.

When I read some of those activities, it reminds me of the kind of comments you get from ignorant/uneducated able bodied people. You would think they would do their research or least have input from people who actually understand what we have to deal with. But of course, why would they do that? Makes too much sense.

Edited by wheelie182, 20 January 2012 - 04:08 PM.

That's what she said!

#17 Tinbasher

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 04:38 PM

Apologies Trin I was scoring 10 points instead of 12.
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#18 sherbs

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 09:00 PM

Hi Sherbs
Love your description of yourself wobberly walker.
I do not mean easily work now i mean in a future that stopped thinking medical model and addressed social model of disability.
Second point being a high quad i can have o.k days and to many written off days which in anything other than voluntary sector will not really fly.
Currently studying at home to improve the CV so hopefully in the future an opportunity to work again will arise.
Keep on walking girl.

Cheers Curbyi



No worries Curbyi, I totally read your message wrong, sending my apologies. It is great that you are studying and volunteering, I admire you for keeping up with both. Good luck with your studies and CV

Sherbs

#19 sherbs

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 09:06 PM

True Trin but not enough in itself to get to the high rate mob which one assumes will certainly not be higher that it is now.

They take the view that paras are on the whole independently mobile, this might apply in places with accessible transport and few hills.

The care element changes are likely to exclude any para from the high rate pip and the low rate pip, the lowest rate of DLA will be abolished.

Anyone who is incomplete and a wobbly walker like me may struggle to get anything.

My objections are not so much to the change but to the methodology (computer based points score by ATOS "health care professionals") I have seen how this has affected many perfectly eligible disabled people with ESA. Appeal and you wait almost a year, if you have a motability car or powerchair it will now go back within weeks rather than after the appeal. Adaptations and all, no compensation if you get reawarded at appeal.

Tin


Thats me out then!!! ho hum, may as well just throw the towel in now, and give up on working etc, actually may as well just give up on everything.

I do think that PIP seems to be targeted for LD or dementia, well the care category anyhow, It doesn't really relate twell to physical or mental health, so seems like a huge amount of people already receiving DLA, care rate and DLA mobility will not get PIP, ho hum!!!

#20 curbyi

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 03:44 PM

My objections are not so much to the change but to the methodology (computer based points score by ATOS "health care professionals") I have seen how this has affected many perfectly eligable disabled people with ESA. Appeal and you wait almost a year, if you have a motability car or powerchair it will now go back within weeks rather than after the appeal. Adaptations and all, no compensation if you get reawarded at appeal.

Tin


Totally agree the bean counters who have a incentive to deny any application are not qualified on our backgrounds and the problems we have.
If it don't make sense I blame the voice typing software misunderstanding me not my failure to listen in English classes!

#21 greybeard

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 04:13 PM


My objections are not so much to the change but to the methodology (computer based points score by ATOS "health care professionals")


Totally agree the bean counters who have a incentive to deny any application are not qualified on our backgrounds and the problems we have.


I may be wrong but I suspect Dame Tanni has to take some responsibility for this. My understanding is that she was originally holding out for medically qualified assessors, but then dropped this and allowed the bill through. Please correct me if I got this wrong.

Edited by greybeard, 23 January 2012 - 12:23 PM.

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#22 pikey

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 11:50 AM

Live coverage of questions in the House of Commons to Work and Pensions secretary Iain Duncan Smith and his ministerial team is going to be on at 1430 hrs on the BBC Parliament channel today. Get the news on benefits first hand!
If I fall out of my wheelchair in the woods would anybody hear me?

#23 greybeard

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 12:24 PM

Live coverage of questions in the House of Commons to Work and Pensions secretary Iain Duncan Smith and his ministerial team is going to be on at 1430 hrs on the BBC Parliament channel today. Get the news on benefits first hand!

Thanks.

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#24 Apparelyzed

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 12:58 PM

Activity 2. Moving around

  • Can move at least 200 metres either (i) unaided; or (ii) using an aid or appliance, other than a wheelchair or a motorised device. - Score 0
  • Can move at least 50 metres but not more than 200 metres either (i) unaided; or (ii) using an aid or appliance, other than a wheelchair or a motorised device. – Score 4
  • Can move up to 50 metres unaided but no further. – Score 8
  • Cannot move up to 50 metres without using an aid or appliance, other than a wheelchair or a motorised device. - Score 10
  • Cannot move up to 50 metres without using a wheelchair propelled by the claimant. - Score 12
  • Cannot move up to 50 metres without using a wheelchair propelled by another person or a motorised device. – Score 15
  • Cannot either (i) move around at all; or (ii) transfer unaided from one seated position to another adjacent seated position. Score15


So, I can push my wheelchair more than 50 metres (depending on the surface), but I cannot transfer without assistance.

Would it be dangerous to presume the assessor would put me in the last category?

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#25 brockit79

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 01:00 PM

I do not mean easily work now i mean in a future that stopped thinking medical model and addressed social model of disability.
Second point being a high quad i can have o.k days and to many written off days which in anything other than voluntary sector will not really fly.
Currently studying at home to improve the CV so hopefully in the future an opportunity to work again will arise

Cheers Curbyi


hear! hear! to "an addressed social model of disability"!

I am a para but have debilitating pain and too have good and bad days but sometimes volunteer for the same reasons. I'm fighting like merry hell so that I don't lose my job as my employers have no idea how to handle me or my return to work, but no surrender! no retreat!
Neek me chawa, wermo, mo killie ma klounkee!

#26 Izziwhizzi

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 01:17 PM

Boss

I think your comment about 50m pushing - but depends on the surface - means you can't. I guess gradient is also an issue and of course we use a lot of ramps in our lives.

IDS was on Radio 4 this morning, unfortunately he didn't sound like a guy with much understanding of people who are not in the privileged world he lives in.

#27 Tinbasher

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 09:28 PM

It's 50 m on a theoretical level surface in theoretical wheelchair . Not where you live or in your particular chair. I kid you not!
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#28 Trinity

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 09:30 PM


Activity 2. Moving around

  • Can move at least 200 metres either (i) unaided; or (ii) using an aid or appliance, other than a wheelchair or a motorised device. - Score 0
  • Can move at least 50 metres but not more than 200 metres either (i) unaided; or (ii) using an aid or appliance, other than a wheelchair or a motorised device. – Score 4
  • Can move up to 50 metres unaided but no further. – Score 8
  • Cannot move up to 50 metres without using an aid or appliance, other than a wheelchair or a motorised device. - Score 10
  • Cannot move up to 50 metres without using a wheelchair propelled by the claimant. - Score 12
  • Cannot move up to 50 metres without using a wheelchair propelled by another person or a motorised device. – Score 15
  • Cannot either (i) move around at all; or (ii) transfer unaided from one seated position to another adjacent seated position. Score15


So, I can push my wheelchair more than 50 metres (depending on the surface), but I cannot transfer without assistance.

Would it be dangerous to presume the assessor would put me in the last category?

Simon


To be fair all permanent w/c users will score a 12 anyway which according to the site is the minimum for higher rate (yay!)

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#29 Apparelyzed

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 09:03 AM

Cool! :)

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#30 Edinburgh Colin

Edinburgh Colin

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 09:20 AM



Activity 2. Moving around

  • Can move at least 200 metres either (i) unaided; or (ii) using an aid or appliance, other than a wheelchair or a motorised device. - Score 0
  • Can move at least 50 metres but not more than 200 metres either (i) unaided; or (ii) using an aid or appliance, other than a wheelchair or a motorised device. – Score 4
  • Can move up to 50 metres unaided but no further. – Score 8
  • Cannot move up to 50 metres without using an aid or appliance, other than a wheelchair or a motorised device. - Score 10
  • Cannot move up to 50 metres without using a wheelchair propelled by the claimant. - Score 12
  • Cannot move up to 50 metres without using a wheelchair propelled by another person or a motorised device. – Score 15
  • Cannot either (i) move around at all; or (ii) transfer unaided from one seated position to another adjacent seated position. Score15


So, I can push my wheelchair more than 50 metres (depending on the surface), but I cannot transfer without assistance.

Would it be dangerous to presume the assessor would put me in the last category?

Simon


To be fair all permanent w/c users will score a 12 anyway which according to the site is the minimum for higher rate (yay!)


How do you get the 12 Trinny?
Impossible only describes a problem that needs viewed from a different perspective



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