30 replies to this topic

[A trophy guy]

One aspect of life in a wheelchair that has never really been discussed or brought up is that of the dynamic of interacting with a 'standing' world from a position of being eternally seated. That dynamic is both symbolically and literally one of an "authority" or "superior" (dominant, etc.) figure interacting with a subject expected to submit.

Now this may seem very cliche or stereotypical, and that is true; but I believe that this ever-present dynamic influences (subconsciously, of course) the way both ABs and people in wheelchairs interact with each other in the world.


ETA: What I mean is someone in a wheelchair goes through their entire life functioning from a seated position, while interacting with able-bodied people who are not seated; who tower over them. This sort of dynamic is not conducive to true equality. It puts the person in the wheelchair in a perpetual child-like state.

Edited by A trophy guy, 23 January 2012 - 05:32 AM.

[greybeard]

Only if you believe that to apply to you. An easy way of balancing things, if you ever feel intimidated, is to imagine the person you are interacting with to be only in their underwear.

Edited by greybeard, 23 January 2012 - 07:56 AM.

[Apparelyzed]

Unless you were injured very young, I would imagine this would only apply to very few of those with SCI.

Most people with SCI have enjoyed the ability of waking, so can remember what it was like to be in a standing position, and what it was like to interact with others as an able bodied person.

I think someone with insecurity issues may be affected by what you describe, but personally, I consider myself equal to others around me, regardless of whether they are standing or seated.

I have found that the able bodied world generally treats me as an equal, and I haven't had many situations where this doesn't hold true. But, this isn't much different to two able bodied people who have disagreements, for example, when doors are not held open, someone jumps the que etc.

Because I'm in a chair does not excuse me from others thoughtlessness.

Simon.

[StillFingers]

original reply deleted...thinking overnight...seeya tomorrow...a delete (after post) button would be nice simon. After sleep and ADness subsided...

True equality only exists within self, if we allow it...as for life on wheels, directness is a must; eye contact, conversation, a joke to break the ice, listening...your foot/footrest gently nudging their person...it's about making the effort; as it was when we were AB.

Fortunately I've not met many people that, do to their height, have taken advantage of my lower vantage point...except at concerts, sporting events, etc. for some reason those dam ABs like to stand, cheer, dance...when shit happens

Edited by StillFingers, 23 January 2012 - 04:27 PM.

[goose]

I find it hard to talk when everyone else is standing but for another reason. My voice is not very loud and I feel I'm always trying to almost scream at people. I feel my voice gets lost and it's harder to make eye contact with a group of ABs.


I prefer having a face to face conversation so when people come to my house it's no surprise everyone ends up in the kitchen. However, that's where everyone hung out before my SCI too. When we sit around the island or the table, I DON'T feel as different. It's as if we are all on the same level...eyeball to eyeball. I tend to talk a lot with my eyes (before & after SCI) so I'm always seeking ways to level the playing field by finding them chairs or somewhere for them to sit. BUT I don't feel intimidated when it's only possible for everyone else to stand.

[Apparelyzed]

goose, on 23 January 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

I tend to talk a lot with my eyes ...

I think eye contact is very important, I don't tend to wear sunglasses very often for this very reason.

I find that eye contact opens up a line of communication, without the need to speak.

Simon

[Edinburgh Colin]

Apparelyzed, on 23 January 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

goose, on 23 January 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

I tend to talk a lot with my eyes ...

I think eye contact is very important, I don't tend to wear sunglasses very often for this very reason.

I find that eye contact opens up a line of communication, without the need to speak.

Simon

I'll second both of those comments.
As someone who was 6 foot and big , eye contact was almost immediate when meeting people and I find that the hardest thing now I'm "down here". As Simon says if you can exchange a few direct words with someone and have the eye contact at that point then the connection is made, I then feel a lot more comfortable and "included".
EC

[greybeard]

Goose, just a tug on a fella's trouser leg would get his attention real fast.

[wheelie182]

I work in an electronic store where most of my time is spent on the shop floor assisting customers with their questions. I personally have no problem talking to someone stood up while I'm sat down. In most cases, as long as I'm not so close to them, I barely even feel the height difference, but I absolutely hate it when they go down on their knees to level up with me, I find that patronising.

I'm also with Simon on the sunglasses thing, ... you just don't know where to look.

[greybeard]

wheelie182, on 23 January 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

I absolutely hate it when they go down on their knees to level up with me, I find that patronising.

I think that's an over reaction on your part. They are probably just trying to be nice and make direct eye contact easier for you. You should thank them rather than be offended.

[wheelie182]

greybeard, on 23 January 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

wheelie182, on 23 January 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

I absolutely hate it when they go down on their knees to level up with me, I find that patronising.

I think that's an over reaction on your part. They are probably just trying to be nice and make direct eye contact easier for you. You should thank them rather than be offended.

Oh I'm never rude about it, I don't even say anything, but I just really don't like it. Not so much because it offends me, but I just think its unnecessary.


But no ... I will not be thanking them.

Edited by wheelie182, 23 January 2012 - 10:10 AM.

[jenny407]

ATG: We did discuss a similar thread a while ago (longer while, before you joined). A thread by a lawyer ... anybody remembers? I tried to search but couldn't find it (search button). Just to state that yes, other people feel similar.

As an AB, I don't feel like that - nor has my SCI friend mentioned this. Perhaps he just didn't mention it ... =)

Whenever possible, it does help if you tell people to please sit down, to make talks easier. An AB person isn't always aware of this problem.


I'd like to point out that - whereas I can understand your feelings - ABs will NOT usually feel in any way superior to wheelchair users because of our standing position (or for any other reason). I'm sure that those of you who were injured not too long ago, who remember their AB times, would agree with me here. And it might help to bear that in mind, ATG, that it is YOUR perspective (understandable), but not THEIRS.

[Apparelyzed]

WRT people getting to your level by squatting, a lot of disability awareness training does tend to promote level eye contact, so people are only doing what they think is the correct way of addressing someone in a wheelchair.

Personally, unless people are seated, I prefer people to stand, as it feels more natural.

Simon.

[goose]

greybeard, on 23 January 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

Goose, just a tug on a fella's trouser leg would get his attention real fast.

Unfortunately, my tuggers don't work! However, I have found other ways to get their attention if I want to.

I'm grateful people will get down on one knee to talk to me if it's a 1 on 1 conversation. It lets me know they're really interested in what I have to say plus I don't have to raise my voice. If it's a group, I'd want everyone to remain standing.

I rather enjoy conversations when no words are spoken....only eyes and smiles needed.

[greybeard]

goose, on 23 January 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

greybeard, on 23 January 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

Goose, just a tug on a fella's trouser leg would get his attention real fast.

Unfortunately, my tuggers don't work! However, I have found other ways to get their attention if I want to.

Yer got teeth dontcha?

[Tetracyclone]

I am one who prefers if people get down on my level. My broken neck does not feel good looking up at people. I always begin conversations with a "sit" gesture and find that people are like dogs- they respond quickly to a gesture where they may not to words.

I blatantly insist people cater to my ways of doing things, in part because I cannot understand speech unless the speaker is very close to me. Some of my attitude may have to do with being old- people should jump through my hoops...because...
simply because.

I am alpha, hear me roar.

[wheelie182]

Well, it just goes to show we all have our preferences and that AB people are screwed! .. they can do no right!

[Parachute]

Hi Everyone

I am not sure that the following will mean much to you but it is worth a read.


http://www.leeds.ac....39;s REPORT.pdf

[megatrig]

wheelie182, on 23 January 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

Well, it just goes to show we all have our preferences and that AB people are screwed! .. they can do no right!

Indeedy! Now I know why I'm avoided so much!!! lol ... joke!

Seriously............. I THINK THIS IS ONE OF THOSE IMPOSSIBLE TOPICS!!

Way to many grey areas. Some people sitting/standing are more submissive. So generalising about the whole wheelchair population is impossible.

Interesting food for thought though.

So how big a height difference does it need to be? 6' Male talking to 5'3" male? ... does that work the same?, etc, etc, etc

[Spinner]

This post made me think of the time we went to see the Blue Man Group. My husband asked one of the blue men to sit on his lap and pose for a photo. After shooting my husband a sideways look, the blue man sat on his lap and we have an awesome picture!

Edited by Spinner, 23 January 2012 - 04:21 PM.

[rue2you]

I also don't believe "authority" has to do with height. 3 of my 6 children are now taller than me. But, when Momma says something, they do it! They know who the boss is! I think it is a matter once again, like so many other issues of SCI, of what you really think about yourself and how you present yourself. I know I'm the authority to my children, I act like it, and they respond. I know I am still equal to my peers, I act like it, and they respond. This is the truth, I have had SEVERAL of my closest friends say to me that they forget I am in a chair. They say they really don't even notice it anymore (unless I am doing something obvious like a transfer or getting in a car). But just rolling along with them or talking with them, they say they just forget it. I think that is because although I know it is a part of me, I don't make a big deal about it to everyone else, and when I do, it is usually in some sort of joke about it.

I know AB's do some thoughtless things (thoughtless not because they are trying to be, but only because they have never been SCI), but I have found my interaction with most of them extremely pleasant.

[qbounce]

Apparelyzed, on 23 January 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

WRT people getting to your level by squatting, a lot of disability awareness training does tend to promote level eye contact, so people are only doing what they think is the correct way of addressing someone in a wheelchair.

Same goes here in the US, regarding nurses training. I was actually taken aback by the answer given on a test my wife took in her Psychological Technician class. It inquired as to the BEST way to speak to someone in a wheelchair, and the answer was to SQUAT down at eye level . . . . a little extreme for my taste as well. Now I know not to take things personally when someone does this, as it's actually considered polite in certain circles.

I think it's an individual choice however, and if someone were to do this to me, I'd let them know that I find it more comfortable for them to stand.

[A trophy guy]

Apparelyzed, on 23 January 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

Unless you were injured very young, I would imagine this would only apply to very few of those with SCI.

Most people with SCI have enjoyed the ability of waking, so can remember what it was like to be in a standing position, and what it was like to interact with others as an able bodied person.

I think someone with insecurity issues may be affected by what you describe, but personally, I consider myself equal to others around me, regardless of whether they are standing or seated.

I have found that the able bodied world generally treats me as an equal, and I haven't had many situations where this doesn't hold true. But, this isn't much different to two able bodied people who have disagreements, for example, when doors are not held open, someone jumps the que etc.

Because I'm in a chair does not excuse me from others thoughtlessness.

Simon.

Im speaking much more on a subconscious level. Of course you (and most) people with SCI consider themselves equal to others around them. What I mean is more just the physical dynamics of interacting with someone who is standing when you are sitting.

[RZ94]

I want in on this......But I need a lil' more of an idea of what yer askin'. (Subconcious? I know what that means but........?)

Am I intimidated by a huge guy or do they think they's betttern me?

Elaborate a bit and i'll play.

[edlee]

If the question is " do I defer to ABs because they are taller than me?" then my answer would be ,, not yet. If it's " do I over compensate, because I phychologically am feeling inferior?'' again the same answer,, or at least I don't think so.

But,, my injury occurred so late in my life,, at a time where I had an absolute grasp of my perceived self worth,, that my being in a chair wasn't a strong enough reason for me to see myself any differently. I don't know that the same can be said of all SCIs,,, but I feel that if this condition causes that kind of self doubt,, that there might have been reason for examining that preinjury.

As for equality,,, I haven't really considered myself equal to all that many people.
ed

[A trophy guy]

People seem to be focusing entirely on how those in wheelchairs handle this dynamic, but just as relevant (and many times, even more relevant) is how able-bodied people interpret this dynamic. And of course, I am speaking on a subconscious level (I don't know, perhaps even an unconscious level). There is a level of basic truth to the idea that a person almost can't help themselves but to "talk down" to someone who is very small or short (like a child). Likewise, the typical settings in which some people are seated while another is standing features a leader/follower dynamic (teacher-student, speaker-audience, authority figure/criminal, etc.) And "talk down" might not be the best term to use but I am having a difficult time wording this exactly as I want to.

[Stand]

I don't know what the big deal is. Someone is taking the time to engage in conversation with you. Who cares what level they do it from? If they make you feel like a child, that's a complex you need to work through. If someone talks to you, looking down, and belittles you, now that's a different story. That's just plain ignorance on their part but how you decide to feel (like a child?) and react is up to you.

[A trophy guy]

Stand117711, on 24 January 2012 - 03:50 AM, said:

I don't know what the big deal is. Someone is taking the time to engage in conversation with you. Who cares what level they do it from? If they make you feel like a child, that's a complex you need to work through. If someone talks to you, looking down, and belittles you, now that's a different story. That's just plain ignorance on their part but how you decide to feel (like a child?) and react is up to you.

Don't take this thread the wrong way. I'm probably not doing the best job articulating my points here. I am not talking about specifics, or any person(s) individually; including myself. I am talking about the unconscious, societal tendencies involved in standing/sitting interactions; and this, no doubt, must include those interactions between able-bodied people and those who use wheelchairs.

[greybeard]

Does this help?

Edited by greybeard, 24 January 2012 - 09:46 AM.

[jenny407]

A trophy guy, on 24 January 2012 - 01:32 AM, said:

(...)
Likewise, the typical settings in which some people are seated while another is standing features a leader/follower dynamic (teacher-student, speaker-audience, authority figure/criminal, etc.) And "talk down" might not be the best term to use but I am having a difficult time wording this exactly as I want to.

I do get your point.
But I also visualize situations where the authority (headmaster - boss) is sitting (behind a huge desk, often) and the 'inferior' person is standing (pupil - employee). And is left standing (no: "Please sit down.") on purpose ... to make them feel 'inferior'.

I do know the situation is different. But as you mentioned this ... this came to my mind.