42 replies to this topic

[vitzi]

I am so angry! Last Friday, I received a jury duty summons in the mail. On page 2 of the summons, there were six exemptions from jury service. When I read exemption #6, I really thought that I was seeing things and boy,was I irate! Exemption #6 reads as follows: "A person may claim an exemption from jury service if that person is the primary caretaker of a person who is an invalid unable to care for himself or herself. (This exemption does not apply to health care workers.)" Are there ignorant people around that still consider us invalids, especially in government?(That was a stupid question!) I called the justice of the peace's office where the summons was originated and I asked the secretary about it. She told me that her office didn't generate the wording, it was the city clerk's office.Good ole' passin' the buck!! She was quite snotty about it too. I am so glad that I don't have to go because I have moved out of the county. If I did have to attend, I would probably be the one who would end up in jail for causing a scene. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to approach this? I went on the ADA website and didn't see anything about it but I am still looking. Thanks for letting me vent here. I really appreciate it!

Vitzi

[Adams]

Ah yes. Ignorance at its finest. At least caretaker is excused.

"I'm sorry, I can't attend, I have to care for my cripple"

Here's some more ignorance:
I was heading into a mall yesterday with my wife, I mean aid. We were making our way to the entrance to a Pinera and I saw a guy holding a door for an older couple into a different store (there were a lot of different entrys). After he held the door for them I could see him wanting to get the door for me but I wasn't going to the door he was at. I wans't about to tell him I'm not heading that way, I don't need your help. I than hear him calling out, "Want me to get the door?". I kept going.

I know he was thinking "bitter cripple". It's like I need to explain to people what I'm doing

[brackman22]

Both you, vitzi, and you, Adams, are behaving in a cockeyed manner.

First of all, vitzi: You do realize that you were sent the same document that is sent to all people summoned for jury duty, don't you? They weren't just trying to figure out what to call wheelchair users and settled upon invalid. It may be offensive to you but you need to realize they weren’t speaking to you specifically or even just individuals who use wheelchairs. The term invalid not only covers you, it can cover terminally ill cancer patients, severe stroke victims and the numerous others who need in home care.

If the court system wanted to make sure no one was offended, they would have to launch a focus group and "exemption 6" would probably be a page long. It almost seems like you are "fishing" for insults. As for how to approach this? Well, I think you can guess what I would advise.

Adams:

I would consider your behavior even more reprehensible than vitzi's! A guy actually wanted to hold the door open for you. What an a**hole, huh? And, of course, he should have known you didn't want his help. To expect you to tell him, "No, thank you, I'm going the other way"; well, how preposterous! Then he has the balls to ask if he can get the door for you! I just hope you called the authorities.

Of course he went away thinking something. It was probably something like, what an a**hole rather than bitter cripple. Because, I know you think I could not be further from the truth, but that's exactly how you behaved.

I would suggest both of you get over yourselves and stop scanning every moment of your lives for possible insults or discrimination.

This thread has a perfect title because you both have beautifully displayed ignorance.


Brett

[bgarber]

Brett- you're exactly right. Next time that "ignorant" man who was trying to be helpful with the door sees someone else in a chair (who might actually need help)- how likely do you think he'll be to offer?
Adams- I'll wager that the "bitter cripple" is more of an introspective view that you manage to project to people whose sole fault is offering to be helpful. As someone who often needs help with doors, I find that manners, a smile and a "Thanks" leave everyone feeling better.
Brant

brackman22, on Dec 15 2006, 03:13 PM, said:

Both you, vitzi, and you, Adams, are behaving in a cockeyed manner.

First of all, vitzi: You do realize that you were sent the same document that is sent to all people summoned for jury duty, don't you? They weren't just trying to figure out what to call wheelchair users and settled upon invalid. It may be offensive to you but you need to realize they weren’t speaking to you specifically or even just individuals who use wheelchairs. The term invalid not only covers you, it can cover terminally ill cancer patients, severe stroke victims and the numerous others who need in home care.

If the court system wanted to make sure no one was offended, they would have to launch a focus group and "exemption 6" would probably be a page long. It almost seems like you are "fishing" for insults. As for how to approach this? Well, I think you can guess what I would advise.

Adams:

I would consider your behavior even more reprehensible than vitzi's! A guy actually wanted to hold the door open for you. What an a**hole, huh? And, of course, he should have known you didn't want his help. To expect you to tell him, "No, thank you, I'm going the other way"; well, how preposterous! Then he has the balls to ask if he can get the door for you! I just hope you called the authorities.

Of course he went away thinking something. It was probably something like, what an a**hole rather than bitter cripple. Because, I know you think I could not be further from the truth, but that's exactly how you behaved.

I would suggest both of you get over yourselves and stop scanning every moment of your lives for possible insults or discrimination.

This thread has a perfect title because you both have beautifully displayed ignorance.


Brett

[brackman22]

You surprised me bgarber! I was expecting to be dragged over the coals for my remarks. It really is hard to imagine someone being offended by an offer to hold the door isn't it?

Brett

[bgarber]

Brett

I found your comments to be "dead on". Working in a large office building with plenty of doors & elevators, I'm often entertained by people who in trying to be helpful by, say holding the elevator door open, will actually block my way in. But with a quick joke and a smile they feel good and next time I see them in the building it's like I've made a new friend. It's incomprehensible how you could look at someone trying to help by opening a door & feel that you don't have to say 'I'm not going that way" because it means you're "having to explain yourself to someone" HUH?? And to consider them the ignorant one??!!
Brant

[HollieIzzo]

Very interesting topic

I think that the 'invalid' label, whilst not the nicest of terminologies, is meant to cover a whole host of eventualities as Brett said. Can see it may not be the wisest of word choices, perhaps stating that 'if you are a primary caregiver to a person with medical/physical needs you are exempt' but again, all possible scenrios would probably have to be accounted for, for legal reasons, and there would be a whole page of irrelevant gumf to sort through

Regarding the man who held the door; at my workplace people always open doors for me (even though I have a remote opener), and I always say thanks. Not because I am indebted or because I owe them or because they have done some good deed, but because it's good manners, and I would say thank you whatever my physical difficulty, even if I had none at all. However, it does make me laugh a little when they hold the door open to the stairwell. I flash a smile and say something like 'It's ok, I think I'll take the lift today", which makes them laugh and voila, ice broken and friend made. After that there are no awkward approaches or difficulties for them in how to talk to me. I have bad days (as everone does) where I do not feel like saying thanks, and I do know that sometimes it feels like you are constantly saying thank you etc but if you're having a day where you don't want help but people are still offering it, it is not their fault.

I will say that sometimes I feel like I'm representing disabled people though, and this can make you feel like you have to explain yourself to people to a point. As you pointed out, Brant, how you interact with someone AB may affect how that person reacts with the next chair user they see. I very often resent having to be all sweetness and light just in case I upset someone and another chair user, or even me, needs their help at some point in the future. I just think to myself that if I'm being a bi*ch that day and I am ungrateful or out of order, if the person takes that to be representative of every disabled person then they have a problem, not me. I would never presume if someone Chinese, for example, or American etc etc was out of order to me that all people from that country would behave in the same way.

If I am being grumpy and they think 'what a cow', then great - if they think 'bitter cripple', they have a problem!

Be careful about interpreting things non offensive to be so - most of us have enough to contend with, without adding to it!

Hollie

[brackman22]

Brant

I have read so many posts similar to vitzi's and Adams'. It almost seems like some who post on this site think that there is a book of etiquette on how to interact with individuals in wheelchairs. Furthermore, every able bodied individual is expected to read and memorize it. Should one be caught behaving umbecoming to the wheelchair elite, they are to shunned and ridiculed.

I agree with you. If someone goes out of their way to help me, no matter if they actually help or hinder, you can bet your ass I am going to say thank you!

Brett

[itsjustme]

People are so rude to me in this chair in general that I am so thankful when someone has the common decency to offer such a simple thing as holding the door for me. So many people rush to the doors and let them go in my face like they think that I am going to hold them up for an extra 5 minutes or something.

There was one instance when a young man came out of a business and kind of caught sight of me approaching out of the corner of his eye and actually stopped and took a few steps back to hold the door for me. He could have ignored me and just kept on going but I thought how very nice he was just to take a few extra seconds and steps just to be nice to me. I really appreciated that.

Isn't it too bad that people just aren't that nice to each other in general wheelchair or not?

[brookelynn628]

I just wanted to say that I agree with those of you who have the point of view that insults seem to be "fished for" at times. I wholeheartedly agree that it's a shame that the how-to's of interacting with people of all types and abilities aren't a given. Before I met Aaron, I'd only been around disabled persons on very rare occasions. Likewise, I'm sure that pre-injury, many SCIs didn't have experiences with the disabled either. Though you now live your life as a wheelchair user (or crutches, if the case may be), I'm sure you may (depending on the age at which you were injured) remember a time when you yourself were 'ignorant' of a disabled person's wants and needs. If so, then I'm sure you also relate to my feeling that ABs have no intention of purposely offending you. As children, we are taught to be kind to others. Would you rather our parents tell us to ignore people in wheelchairs, to not smile or meet you eye to eye when speaking with you? Should we all just not talk to anyone who's not exactly the same as us? What a shame that would be.

The definition of 'ignorant' is 'unknowing, unaware, unlearned.' There is no mention of ill-intent. So while the actions of those who simply 'don't know' may offend you, it doesn't give you a right to not extend them common courtesies, such as saying 'thank you.' It's entirely possible that if you were in their shoes, you'd have done the exact same thing. I agree that all we teach people how to treat us, and that when we're a part of a group that is visibly identifiable, we also teach people how to teach the group as a whole.

I apologize if I've just jumped in on a gripe. I simply have a very hard time believing that anyone who would bother to try to help or be kind has malicious intention.

[AZ_PTA]

Brackman, I too, agree with you words. I couldn't belive those posts when I read them!

[brackman22]

I've experienced what you're talking about itsjustme. Maybe I'm wrong for thinking that at least one person heading for the door will hold it open or ask if they can. It just seems like common courtesy to me. I've even held open doors for able bodied people if I have the opportunity. It's not an issue of pitting able bodied versus wheelchair user. It's like you said itsjust me: "Isn't it too bad that people just aren't that nice to each other in general wheelchair or not?"


That's why I am perplexed by some of the members here that believe helping or offering help is some sort of insult or something. Some have tried to explain it to me but not to my satisfaction.

Brett

[juless]

Hey everyone,

I agree that invalid is not a very complimentary word and probably something more appropriate could be used and why not write the clerk of courts or whoever and make a suggestion on what word would be appropriate.

On the opening doors, it is common courtesy that if I see somebody coming up behind me or I think they are going to use the door I keep it open, whether they are in a wheelchair, braces, crutches or whatever. As an AB person and even AB sounds kind of weird but anyhow as an AB I can not predict a mood or analyze the issue on a level of philosophy, I do as I would like done to me, end of story, it is not that complicated.

I recall being 14 years old in a supermarket in Australia and trying to help a lady in a wheelchair get an item off the top shelf, she was trying to manage a child and shop, she almost bit my head off, I was really hurt because my intention was to be helpful not to demean her abilities in any way shape or form.

We are all part of this big planet and it'd all run so much more smoothly and with less pain if we could all be considerate and kind to one another, that's really what it's about because WE ALL NEED HELP at one point or another in our lives, whether it is psychological or emotional or physical. Smile and be polite it makes for a much nicer day all around especially if people are trying to be decent to you.

juless

[brackman22]

I want to try to put this issue of the word invalid being insulting to rest and attempt to explain that its use (in most cases) should not be deemed offensive. I'm going to secede to the masses that the word may be outdated and the use of some "kinder" or "less offensive" word would make us all happy.

However, I'm also going to argue that most people, able bodied or not, recognize the term is outdated and may be considered offensive by many members of our "community". I have indeed been addressed by some less than flattering terms. Usually, the "offending party" is older than the term invalid itself.

They usually say that when they were young (insert insulting term here) were never able to get around like they are today (or something like that). They are always smiling when they say that so I assume they are happy to see me out and about. I may engage in some brief chitchat and be on my way.

Some die hard wheelchair using, or whatever, PC fans will argue that I should take these opportunities to explain to these elderly persons that they have just used a term that offends me and I should explain that I prefer something like "wheelchair user" or whatever. They argue that that is how we get rid of terms like invalid. What a bunch of bull

My argument is simple. Terms like invalid die alongside those little old ladies that are happy to see me out and about. Now, if a younger person were to use the term, I may say that that term went out with the catch phrase "Where's the beef"? and just give him a heads-up in a friendly manner. (I hope most of you remember those Wendy's commercials.) If someone who is attempting to degrade me addresses me with an unflattering term, I just turn the other cheek. They know the correct PC term they are supposed to use. If I waste my time trying to school them, then I am just adding to their folly.

Wow! Once again I have written a book trying to put forth what I thought was a brief point.

OK, I think I can explain myself with this brief scenario. I'm going to interpret vitzi's response and then tell you what my response would probably would have been.

Vitzi opens the jury summons and eventually reads the now infamous "exemption 6". At this moment, vitzi interprets that as a personal attack and an attack on wheelchair users worldwide. After his rage subsides he calls the justice of the peace in an attempt to hunt down the scoundrel responsible for the usage of the term. The secretary at the justice of the peace denies having any information. But vitzi can tell by the tone of the secretary's voice that the use of "invalid" was purposely used in a derogatory manner and the secretary was hiding the identity despot responsible. Being further enraged, vitzi exclaims that if he would have had to answer the summons, he probably would have been silenced by "the man" for defending the honor of his "peeps". A search of the ADA website was no help. His last hope is that someone on this site can help him on his quest.

Now my response: "Invalid, I haven't seen that term in ages!" (OK probably no exclamation point. I just wanted to jazz up my response.) "I wonder how long ago this was written".? That would have been followed by a quick search of the dictionary for the term invalid (just to be sure if that included me.)

That's about it. I hope I accomplished explaining what it was I originally started writing about.

Merry Christmas and Holiday Greetings to all!

Brett

[rkzenrage]

I don't care about words, never have. I'm not ashamed of being disabled, white, tall or bald.
So, if I'm called honky, invalid, gimp, cracker, baldy, whitey, liberal, gun lover, red-neck, wheels, etc, etc, etc... my response is the same, "thanks".
You can't be offended by words if you are fine with who you are.
Any descriptor is a compliment if you love yourself.
Funny how some dislike cripple, some dislike others, some don't identify with invalid (most of us are not, so it really does not fit huh?... so why care if you are called that?)... I just don't get it, confuses me... I'm a gimp, cripple, invalid, wheels, para, bla, bla, bla... mostly I'm Rob... howdy.
I let people get to know me, then, perhaps, if I'm not a defensive dick, they will not feel the need to objectify those in chairs.

Edit:
The opening doors thing has always confused the hell out of me...
When AB, and I can now... I always hold the door for those behind me. Even If I am walking by a door and I see someone coming and I am not going through that door, I will hold it for them, s-called manners. S-a-little weird when they make a deal about it, but not enough to get bent about.

Edited by rkzenrage, 16 December 2006 - 11:49 PM.

[icarus_melt76]

brackman22 and others.....CUTE! For the most part, the entire 'Ignorance' post was fairly black 'n white. Normal courtesies in public would agree with most of you regarding holding the doors for one another. Of course a 'thank you' goes a long way to be sure.

Where the hell do you get off by cutting down a couple of SCI's with about a half dozen of your self-righteous digs and quips? Twist your knife! Unless your GOD, one remark would suffice!

There is a large mall which I frequent near my home. The main entrance is a mass off doors...six sets of two. Same doors for ENTER or EXIT....no signs. This is a busy area with people coming, going, waiting or just loitering. The set of doors in the middle have buttons to activate them, the only electric doors. Keep in mind these doors are painfully slow. My issue is that at least 90% of the times I go there, everyone's waiting patiently for these particular doors, whether coming or going. Most of the other doors aren't used. These are AB's with no apparent reason for waiting. Probably the same ones using the W/C parking spots.

They have actually seen me coming and moved over to make me go around. Trying to cut this line met with me being blocked and even told to wait! Almost always someone will cut in front of me as the door slowly nears half way open. WTF??? When I do get my turn, I've tried different things to discourage their use. Would you believe that stopping right in the doorway, faking a chair problem doesn't ring any bells, such as try a different door. Instead they pack in behind me. Meanwhile these other doors remain unused. Not to sound racist, I DISLIKE EVERYONE EQUALLY, but it's usually the same minority creating the most blatant of these ill-mannered situations. As with 'profiling' at airports for terrorists.....if it looks like a duck, flies and swims like a duck....it's probably a duck!! Is there any aspect of the Muslim (Islamic?) society that puts crips and gimps in a lesser position, as with their women? There is an ever-growing portion of the city wearing turbans, etc., and many are at the above mentioned doors.

Many times I let them have that door while I smash my chair through one of the vacant doors. Funny (?) thing is when I go this route many times a door will be held for me! Thank you.

Would be interesting to watch as fire alarms ring. Probably no difference. Perfect fodder for another government 'study'.

Why don't I go to management, you say? It's as bad as government...pass the buck from one paper hat to the next. Get nothing but more and more pissed off!

Back to the beginning of my reply....don't just jump on someone, ESPECIALLY REPEATEDLY, when there may be extenuating circumstances such as people's moods, glares, stares, remarks, etc.

Edited by icarus_melt76, 17 December 2006 - 10:34 PM.

[spinesong]

icarus_melt76, on Dec 16 2006, 11:43 PM, said:

Back to the beginning of my reply....don't just jump on someone, ESPECIALLY REPEATEDLY, when there may be extenuating circumstances such as people's moods, glares, stares, remarks, etc.

that's silly. this thread isn't the personal territory of the person who started it. this is a discussion board and there is a discussion going on. so what if a person takes some time and makes several posts throughout the discussion. i'd consider that normal. i'd say that ment the poster was actually thinking about what he was saying. i have found this thread very interesting. just because someone posts about how annoyed/frustrated they are about something doesn't mean that they deserve a pat on the back and sympathy. maybe they need to hear a different perspective. i think that's why we come here, to hear other people's view points and learn. if we all agreed and sympathized with each other, how lame and boring would that be?!

[juless]

Brett

I really enjoyed all your posts and it is a discussion whether we agree or not and it's not personal ... different people different moods and different perspectives.

I really take offence when people generalize people's religion I've lived in Israel I'm jewish and I can understand why the Palestinians feel as they do at times, because of how they are treated not all muslims are terrorists not all Americans are good I don't even know the generalizations

Well anyhow this is a great forum for discussions and I have yet not met a member I don't like so we may not agree but that'sm OK

Love to all
juless

[icarus_melt76]

AB of c4....Spinesong....read what you quoted. My dribble wasn't about differing opinions. In football there's a term called 'piling-on'. That's what I thought of when everyone in this post couldn't find any 'original' way to express themselves so you/they simply reworded the verbal beating and piling-on of someone with their initial opinions. 'Repeatedly' being the key word.

Have had hassles with other 'friend of' people. Why doesn't your friend reply? You could do the typing. Difficulties with a local site resulting in finding the outspoken 'friend' as being on their own....no gimp friend! Get in or out....don't let the door hit you on the ass! PM me if you want to reply.

[LadyPilot]

In my experience, People treat you how you let them...

[Survivor35]

I have to say that I agree with some of the other points made... not to "pile on" or what have you, but, well, sometimes people in our situations can be sensitive to remarks or actions or whatever. I have noticed that I am actually that way more with my family, if they offer to do something that they know I can do, and knowing how I am about doing everything that I can do for myself, since there is so much I cant do now. However, out in public, I cant hold those people accountable. They, I sincerely believe, are using manners, they are just trying to help out. Do I like the fact that there may be pitying type feelings aimed towards me while they are holding a door ( you know, poor girl or what have you ), no I have to say I hate the idea of anyone pitying me. I've worked hard to get past the point of feeling that way towards myself. But they dont know that, no one truly knows how hard the emotional effects of these kinds of injuries are unless they have gone through it themselves, one of the reasons I love this site.
I have to say, when I was AB, I wish that I had taken more time to hold doors for others. I'm not saying I was horribly rude, I just know that I probably didn't pay enough attention, as most dont when life is going just fine for them. I would much rather deal with the people that are bent on helping me with doors or what have you, then the ones who sit in restaurants and stare at me, thinking, poor thing, or whatever it is they are thinking while they are staring... ( I have actually started blowing kisses at these people, which my mother says is horrible... but it makes light of the situation, for me, anyway... bitter cripple or sense of humor? Hmmm.... )

[brackman22]

I felt similar to you about family the first few years post injury.

BRETT

[brackman22]

Hey Icarus,

What are you getting so worked up about icarus? You make the statement about me thinking I’m God while at the same time telling me and others that we are allowed to comment only once on any given topic. This is a forum. I should probably warn you that there is a bit of sarcasm coming up because it appears as if you can’t recognize it. In a forum you usually engage in discussions about various topics.

Now, I guess you could engage in a discussion by making simply one remark but usually there is a bit more dialogue involved. Depending on the topic of the discussion and the individuals involved, opinions may be similar or they may differ greatly. I can understand why you find grasping this concept a bit difficult. I mean, any opinion that differs from yours you deem “self-righteous digs and quips”.

And what’s the deal with the SCI remark? Are we so mentally unstable that if we are criticized in the slightest manner we will suffer tremendous emotional damage? And you thought my post was uncalled for. How dare you imply that we SCI’s are unable to defend our opinions! Who gave you the right or authority to speak for us all? Just so I’m sure you’re not confused, I am indeed a c6 complete quadriplegic icarus.

Another thing. I didn’t let your little “friends of” comment slip by. Implying that Spinesong’s SCI friend could never agree with him//her (I’m sorry spinesong, I’m not completely sure of your gender) because the friend didn’t reply. How would you know?

What other problems have you had with “friends of”, icarus? Or with others wearing turbans? You claim to hate everybody equally icarus. If that is the case, then why the sudden outrage over the “heinous” treatment of vitzi and Adams? Hmmmmm? I have seen and “spoken” with other “friends of” who have been welcomed by many members of this site and Simon alike. I think it’s just a name you’ve given to them so you have a “physical” being to hate.

I think you really enjoy hating people who are different from you. And here’s the kicker icarus: I’m willing to bet your little story of the towel wearing bastards hogging the doors would have been hidden in some other thread if you hadn’t picked mine. Come on, two small paragraphs at the top and just ONE sentence at the end.

I said that vitzi and Adam’s post beautifully displayed ignorance. Your post, on the other hand, was a truly vulgar display of bigotry and hatred. YOU DISGUST ME ICARUS!

Cheers,
BRETT

[icarus_melt76]

brackman....best have your vitals checked! Something's gonna blow. While your at it get some thicker skin.

ciao babe

[Survivor35]

How disappointing. Another page on this forum that was a ligitimate topic, and had others writing in their opinions on said topic, has turned into an oppurtunity for someone to sling insults. Icarus, I believe that Brackman was trying to defend his points here, and point out factors that you had chosen to skim over to indeed, seemingly to use the forum to make your own individual somwhat nasty remarks towards certain minorities. Come on!!! This topic was started discussing how we all felt about a certain situation, and how AB or whoever handle them towards us, and some of us agreed, and some of us disagreed, but you turned it into an insulting rant.

This is a wonderful Forum that enables us all to vent and agree to disagree on some topics, but I truly believe it can be done without complete mudslinging towards minorities, or towards anyone, really. Cant we all just get along? I mean, Damn. Lets get back to the original subject, please, or maybe this topic should be moved to the melting pot, as it is rapidly being

[brookelynn628]

Thanks, Brett. The "friend of" remark was absolutely ridiculous. Just because not everyone on the forum has an SCI, it doesn't mean that we don't deeply love or care for someone who does. Those of us blessed with our friendships and relationships sometimes need a place too, because we often don't have friends who share our SCI-related experiences.

[Kevin]

Survivor35, on Dec 18 2006, 08:45 AM, said:

How disappointing. Another page on this forum that was a ligitimate topic, and had others writing in their opinions on said topic, has turned into an oppurtunity for someone to sling insults. Icarus, I believe that Brackman was trying to defend his points here, and point out factors that you had chosen to skim over to indeed, seemingly to use the forum to make your own individual somwhat nasty remarks towards certain minorities. Come on!!! This topic was started discussing how we all felt about a certain situation, and how AB or whoever handle them towards us, and some of us agreed, and some of us disagreed, but you turned it into an insulting rant.

This is a wonderful Forum that enables us all to vent and agree to disagree on some topics, but I truly believe it can be done without complete mudslinging towards minorities, or towards anyone, really. Cant we all just get along? I mean, Damn. Lets get back to the original subject, please, or maybe this topic should be moved to the melting pot, as it is rapidly being

You hit the nail on the head there. I think people need to remember where they are. This is the apparelyzed forums, not the New Mobility forums...

[brackman22]

Hi All,

I'm not sure if you guys were as disgusted with Icarus' post or not. I thought we read him pretty well. In my opinion, he and others with his views should be banned not only from this post but the forum entirely. Anyone who tries to hide hate speech in any post should not be welcomed. Anyway. enough said I guess. Leave all that for another topic.

I have to agree with you Brookelynne. Especially in dating situations. As this thread has illustrated, even those of us with SCI's disagree sometimes about how we should be addressed or "treated", for lack of a better word, by the AB world. As I eluded to earlier, the SCI community really is something like a subculture with our own mores and custums.

An AB dating an SCI could be loosely similar to a black person dating a white person. Probably not on as deep a level but stuff like, "Why is she dating that criplled guy, she's good looking enough to have any man she wants"? Possibly parents that disapprove or don't understand. I bet it could be difficult. I know that when I have introduced girlfriends to my friends or relatives I can almost see the "what does she see in him" in their faces.

Brett

[LadyPilot]

Survivor35, on Dec 18 2006, 04:45 PM, said:

How disappointing. Another page on this forum that was a ligitimate topic, and had others writing in their opinions on said topic, has turned into an oppurtunity for someone to sling insults.

This is a wonderful Forum that enables us all to vent and agree to disagree on some topics, but I truly believe it can be done without complete mudslinging towards minorities, or towards anyone, really. Cant we all just get along? I mean, Damn. Lets get back to the original subject, please, or maybe this topic should be moved to the melting pot, as it is rapidly being

Beautifully put Survivor35.

I find it very disheartening when posts deteriorate to the point of becoming personal, it doesn't achieve anything. Does it?. At the end of the day we are all here because we have a common connection, SCI. So come on guys agree to disagree and end this senseless venting. PLEASE.

[juless]

Me I'm all for the white flag and being nice to one another. Lets have a drink and make up