15 replies to this topic

[essexscipilot]

Access - Is it Really that Bad?

OK we all moan about it, all have horror stories to tell but as a w/chair user of more than thirty years and having a long memory I can positively say ‘things are definitely on the up’

OK before you shoot me down in flames with your stories of ‘I can’t get in here or I cant get in there’ let me explain a little more.

30 years ago at the tender age of 16, I came out of hospital after being in for 11 ½ months. I could not cross most roads as dropped curbs were a rare thing. Going into a pub (yes even at 16) was near on impossible and you would be frowned upon for doing so.

I remember being denied access to many places such as cinemas because I was a Health & Safety risk’ in case a fire broke out. Booking a hotel was near on impossible and as for flying, I’d have more luck trying to grow wings.

Disabled people didn’t drive cars either, they had (Bright Blue) ‘invalid carriages’ that stood out like a sore thumb and shouted out ‘Look I’m disabled’

Not only have there been many improvements in this time but more importantly peoples attitudes have changed a great deal and I really do mean a GREAT deal. We now have a place in society but further more are excepted in the big bad outside world.

OK so there are still places we cant access and to be honest there always will be but on a whole we have evolved in leaps and bounds.

Correcting all the worlds access issues is a mammoth task, especially in a country as old as the UK but we are getting there, no longer can we be denied access to cinemas, booking (most) hotels is now possible and yes, they even have disabled rooms (Something that was not heard of not so long ago in the past) not only have ‘Invalid carriages’ been scrapped but the word invalid has been scrapped with it. (UK)

We are getting there, we just need to see it.

Robin

Edited by essexscipilot, 20 May 2007 - 02:55 PM.

[BlackCherry]

I personally find access not that bad. Except for some places, where it is obvious not much can be done to alter access, I find little problem.

However, my parents seem to think it is a problem. I think it's maybe the older view? When I tell my parents I want to do something they immediately assume it will be difficult or unfriendly as far as access if concerned.

I have few complaints, maybe I need to go the long was around things but I think most places are accessible nowadays.

Like I say, older parents think it impossible. One time without telling them I booked a train to and hotel room in manchester for a weekend break just to prove it is actually quite easy. I knew they would point out inaccessible aspects.
Things have definitely changed and we've come along way and I for one am greatful for it.

[Tarkus]

essexscipilot, on May 19 2007, 07:41 PM, said:

Access - Is it Really that Bad?

OK we all moan about it, all have horror stories to tell but as a w/chair user of more than thirty years and having a long memory I can positively say ‘things are definitely on the up’

OK before you shoot me down in flames with your stories of ‘I can’t get in here or I cant get in there’ let me explain a little more.

30 years ago at the tender age of 16, I came out of hospital after being in for 11 ½ months. I could not cross most roads as dropped curbs were a rare thing. Going into a pub (yes ever at 16) was near on impossible and you would be frowned upon for doing so.

I remember being denied access to many places such as cinemas because I was a Health & Safety risk’ in case a fire broke out. Booking a hotel was near on impossible and as for flying, I’d have more luck trying to grow wings.

Disabled people didn’t drive cars either, they had (Bright Blue) ‘invalid carriages’ that stood out like a sore thumb and shouted out ‘Look I’m disabled’

Not only have there been many improvements in this time but more importantly peoples attitudes have changed a great deal and I really do mean a GREAT deal. We now have a place in society but further more are excepted in the big bad outside world.

OK so there are still places we cant access and to be honest there always will be but on a hole we have evolved in leaps and bounds.

Correcting all the worlds access issues is a mammoth task, especially in a country as old as the UK but we are getting there, no longer can we be denied access to cinemas, booking (most) hotels is now possible and yes, they even have disabled rooms (Something that was not heard of not so long ago in the past) not only have ‘Invalid carriages’ been scrapped but the word invalid has been scrapped with it. (UK)

We are getting there, we just need to see it.

Robin

Well said. Although I'm new to this many around me are "long timers" as yourself and they remind me that the glass is "Half Full".

It's easy to get tied up in where we can't go that we forget about all the places, pre 1990 ADA, that were impossible.

Thanks for the perspective.

Be Big,
Alan

[Tinbasher]

Is it better than it was? CERTAINLY

Is it as good as it could be? Not even close.

Does wider society understand that poor access disables us as much as our impairments? Not a clue.

Yes it is lots better than it was 22 years ago when I first needed it but we still se new businesses and new buildings that are not accessible. WE mustnt give up the fight on the basis that things are a bit better.

Tom

[Tarkus]

Tinbasher, on May 20 2007, 03:38 PM, said:

Is it better than it was? CERTAINLY

Is it as good as it could be? Not even close.

Does wider society understand that poor access disables us as much as our impairments? Not a clue.

Yes it is lots better than it was 22 years ago when I first needed it but we still se new businesses and new buildings that are not accessible. WE mustnt give up the fight on the basis that things are a bit better.

Tom

I don't think anyone suggested that we "give up the fight" we just stated that there has been progress.
Any infringement on ADA must be fought and that will only be done by persons with a "Horse in the race".

As far as wider society "getting it", it's unfair to make that sort of statement because until it happens to or close to you it is impossible to understand.

I know it would be hypocritical of me to say that before my SCI I took notice of what was and wasn't accessible. All I knew is what I needed to do to my business to comply, but out in the public I never saw a ramp, Handicap parking space, isle widht............you get where I'm going with this.

People find there causes as they relate to them, that just human nature. Christopher Reeves didn't get involved with SCI research until he fell off that freaking horse.

I didn't worry about access until it happened to me. Does that make me a bad person when I was AB ? Of course not, just human.

I do agree with you we must never let our guard down, but at the same time we can't be so consumed with the problems that we don't enjoy the rewards of the work of so many.

And more to be done.

Be Big,
Alan

[HiltonP]

As someone who has been permanently in a wheelchair for over 30 years, and has spent over 25 of those as an advocate and campaigner for increased access I would have to say that I am disappointed. Considering the amount of time, money and effort which has been put in to accessability throughout the world during the last 30-odd years we have not made REALLY SIGNIFICANT change.

Sure, there are now disabled parking bays, ramps, disabled toilets, etc but they are largely cosmetic. Very little inroads have been made i.r.o. employment, schooling, healthcare, and public transport, the really nitty-gritty sides of disabled life.

It is just as much of a struggle getting a disabled child into a "normal" school today as it was in 1980, the majority of hotels are still inaccessable, same for factories, offices, restaurants, etc. New property developments (commercial and residential) still view the needs of the disabled as an afterthought rather than an integral part of the plan.

In 30-odd years we have made some progress, but only some. There is still a very long way to go.

[essexscipilot]

I'm glad this thread has got people thinking but we must think outside of the box and look at the issues on a whole replies such as

Quote

30-odd years we have not made REALLY SIGNIFICANT change.

Is I can promise you total incorrect, schools however are a different kettle of fish. The big problem in the UK is schools simply don’t want to part with their money but when faced with a disabled pupil they do tent to panic. They themselves know what is to be done but won’t act until forced, possible the new Disability Equality Duty Plan that all schools in the UK are now forced to produce by law will help.

Businesses on the other hand evolve around making money and most know that the UK for example has a 64 billion pound spending power by its disabled people. Giving better access makes good business sense as well a moral or legal duty.

While I agree that

Quote

schooling, healthcare, and public transport

needs improving and has lacked the improvements of general access I can again say we are getting there, busses and trains although still not up to scratch have improved. A wheelchair user getting a bus or train 20 yrs ago was a rare thing you must admit that? Today not so rare.

Tarkus said

Quote

we can't be so consumed with the problems that we don't enjoy the rewards of the work of so many.

Very wise words, instead of constantly banging on about the places we cant go, look at those we can. I think you will find that the latter now to be in the majority.

Something we could not say 20 or 30 years ago and that’s my point.

Give it another 5 yrs and we will double the efforts of the past 20!

[mulepower]

I haven't been disabled for very long compared to many and pre-injury i wouldn't have even thought of handicap accessibility,so for those who have been advocates,i applaud you for making a noble attempt of making the public familiar.

I live here in Salem,Va and i am fortunate that there is a public service of buses and vans called RADAR that cater to the disabled, mentally handicapped and the elderly in that they will pick you up and drop you off curb to curb. Most will go to the top of my steep driveway and let me out. The service range covers Salem,Roanoke,Vinton,parts of Catawba and thats easily a 60 mile radius and you can go pretty much anywhere you need. It really affordable as each way is only $3.50,the price of gas.All you have to do is call ahead of time to schedule an appointment. I would say there are a good 50 drivers and many of the drivers have brought up that some people have moved to this area so they could use this. I live out of the range of the local buses so it really helps me out. That whole description was to show how transportation has evolved to help out those who need it.

Many new facilities have ramps but still the bathroom stalls that claim to be handicap accessible aren't(the engineer needs to be familiar with wheelchairs) and i guess thats why when i go out,i either cathe in a car or wait til i go home.Most doors no matter how heavy i have no problem with but for some thats a big unfortunate problem. I love that the tables can be adjusted at restaurants. I still haven't mastered how to get plates back to my table at a buffet The little things matter too.

Recently at my local wound doctor at Community Carillion hospital,there was a loaned device created to replace the high skinny tables you have to get on. My description isn't very good but i'll try. A transfer occured to a larger wheelchair which went on a lift that raised you up and back. It had a table behind you that went with the lift so that when you went back it was already in place. The point is you do nothing to get on something that the doctor has to have in order to check you out. It also would prevent the numerous injuries nurses have helping out people to get on tables. It was a trial basis and it got my ringing endorsement,along with many others. Hopefully one day,this machine replaces doctors tables that many can't get on. I don't know why though the tables aren't designed to go up and down making it easier to transfer. The X-Ray machines,man,those things are hard to even get close to,much less transfer. That machine would do wonders for that,as an attachment,of course thats a long ways away,until its deemed important.The X-Rays they do with you lieing on a table or in the wheelchair are so much easier lol.

[edlee]

I've only been chairbound for a short time when compared to the rest of you, but even with this limited experience it seems to me that the world is much more chair accessable than it once was. I can honestly say that almost everywhere I have wanted to go was available to me.

I am sure that there are places that I will want to get to in the future which will be unavailable to me. So what? I don't expect miracles. We, wheelers, are not a large group when compared to the general population. I don't expect every bus that comes by to be useful to me ( although every one so far has been!!!???) nor do I expect every buisness to cater to my needs any more than it did before injury.

I have always been an independent type, one who asked for nothing and relied on myself for what I needed. I consider myself fortunate to have lasted this long with that mindset. I guess that is why I have trouble with the concept of being "owed " access.

I am grateful to be living in a country that has decided to make things easier for me. I am happy that there are those among the ABs who are considerate enough to want to help.

What I am not is someone who believes I have a god given right to demand things from others.

That kind of belief shows a disregard for and a lack of respect towards those in government and private buisness who have been the ones to open doors to us.

If you didn't earn it then it was a gift, and gifts should be acknowledged as such.


Well, I've done it again haven't I? Opinions are like asses,,,,, We all have a different one ( except for my wife who claims me as her second) ed

[essexscipilot]

Edlee

You are an inspiration to us all

[edlee]

Thanks, but my wife might dispute that!!
ed

[HiltonP]

essexscipilot, on May 21 2007, 02:50 PM, said:

. . . instead of constantly banging on about the places we cant go, look at those we can. I think you will find that the latter now to be in the majority . . .

You're joking, right?

Have you tried getting from central London to Heathrow in a wheelchair?
Have you tried finding an accessable hotel in downtown Sydney, or Paris?
Have you tried crossing a freeway road (any of them) in Hong Kong?
Have you tried finding any accessable public toilet in Cape Town?

Many improvements have been made, but the "majority"?, no, we're way off that milestone.

I'm a "my cup's half full" (as opposed to "half empty") kind of guy, but I am also a realist, and the realist in me says we should be a lot further down the equal access road than we are right now (looking at the world as a whole). The ramps, parking bays, and accessable toilets have allowed disabled to get out into public life more easily but there are still major issues around employment, schooling and healthcare. It might not be as evident for those of you living in socialist countries (or on social pensions) but elsewhere the inability of disabled people to gain financial independence through schooling and then employment is a disability on top of their disability.

Access is not just about ramps and parking bays, it is also about access to jobs, and access to schooling/education.

[Tinbasher]

"As far as wider society "getting it", it's unfair to make that sort of statement because until it happens to or close to you it is impossible to understand."

I dont think this is an unfair statement. Many of the big civil rights changes (and I firmly belive this is a civil rights issue) only came about when wider society became properly informed and educated to the true situation. A person doesnt need to become black to understand that rascism is wrong.

Access is only the tiny visible tip of the disability iceberg. Only 4 percent (UK) of disabled people are wheelchair users yet almost all access improvements are aimed at this group with little thought or investment in the hidden social, political and cultural barriers disabled people face.

Disability is a political issue and not simply a personal physical limitation.

Tom

[Tarkus]

Tinbasher, on May 22 2007, 04:43 PM, said:

"As far as wider society "getting it", it's unfair to make that sort of statement because until it happens to or close to you it is impossible to understand."

I dont think this is an unfair statement. Many of the big civil rights changes (and I firmly belive this is a civil rights issue) only came about when wider society became properly informed and educated to the true situation. A person doesnt need to become black to understand that rascism is wrong.

Access is only the tiny visible tip of the disability iceberg. Only 4 percent (UK) of disabled people are wheelchair users yet almost all access improvements are aimed at this group with little thought or investment in the hidden social, political and cultural barriers disabled people face.

Disability is a political issue and not simply a personal physical limitation.

Tom

I made comment to access as that was the title of the thread.

I'll stand by my original statement and add that disability is a social economic, not political problem.
Just because it's bantered about by politicos does not make it primarily a political issue.

Geography also seems to come into play here also.

If you can change the social view then that will change political ideas.

Where we do agree is that the problems, hence the fight, will never be over.

Be Big,
Alan

Edited by Tarkus, 23 May 2007 - 03:46 AM.

[DarkAgdistis]

I fully agree with HiltonP ( even though with the real HiltonP, I would totally disagree ... )

Have you ever tried to take the New-York subway ? have you ever tried to book a hotel in the center of Amsterdam ? or have you ever been to China ? Japan ? India ? Russia ? Romania ? Most of Africa ?

Have you ever faced people's attitude in asian countries stated above ?

And don't come to me pointing the only decent experience or people you've met in those countries as you would just confirm that over there broad minded mentalities are just exceptions.

Too bad for the folks living over there : I'm not sure things will change before centuries. And regarding spinal cord injuries, I'm sure that a cure will have be found well before mentalities have changed.

People living in western countries and culture have NO real clue about what's happening elsewhere. We are very lucky to be living in the western world.

As a matter of fact, even in our western culture, do you really think that, if in a parking areas, the only remaining parking place are the disabled ones it won't be taken by valid ?

Cheers
DA

[essexscipilot]

Hiltonp states

Quote

Many improvements have been made

That is the point i was making, pure and simple!

Yes of course there are many many unaccessible places I don't deny that but we sometimes need to look back to see where we are now and where we are going.