[carole338]

I was diagnosed as a T10/11, incomplete, ASIA C in February 2007. I worked hard and long through rehab to get to an L2. I have been released from rehab and told I have gone as far as I can and reached my goals of ‘walking’. I can stand up with full leg braces and a walker and ‘walk’ around on level ground. This ‘walking’ is actually moving my hips and they move my legs. I have very little movement in my quadrilaterals and ankles.

When I read about Project Walk and all the articles on recovery.does this mean a normal gait or is it with a walker. I get great hope when I read the percentages of those expected to walk. I need to know what is meant by walking and is here specific exercises for achieving this. Does this sound stupid?

[Ches]

Carole as far as I understand, when they speak of walking, they are talking in terms of assisted walking. The success rates are numbers of people able to WALK out unassisted. Sometimes places consider those walking with a cane as WALKING.. but for the most part its the percentage of folks walking unassisted.

[Bulky]

In spinal rehab I heard "stumbling with style ain't walking."

[Tim13]

I was pretty disappointed to learn that the kind of walking the rehab folks said i would do wasn't the same kind walking i did before my injury.

I could stand up in my braces, balance between a walker or crutches, put one foot in front of the other and go 2-300 feet verrry slowly and was almost ready to accept it as the best i could hope for till my leg and butt muscles began firing at random, making even that small pretense of walking dangerously impossible.

[carole338]

Thanks for your responses. It gives me hope that the success rate recovery statistics are for more than just “stumbling with style”. I realize that we have to continue in spite of spasms and other setbacks and maybe be part of those unassisted walking statistics

If anyone knows of home exercises that have proven helpful please let me know. Right now I do a lot of leg braces standing and walking with a walker.

Carole

[kewlcatkez]

Bulky, on Dec 5 2007, 09:59 AM, said:

In spinal rehab I heard "stumbling with style ain't walking."

LOL, I guess I have to change my signature to " Can stumblev.v.short distances with braces/crutches, otherwise got me some wheels...", instead of "walk"....

LOL My 'walking' is far from well, walking..

Interesting topic though..
Ches, could I ask you how the drs and therapists approach this subject at the facility where you use the Lokomat? Do they look for small improvements and the other positiver gains of standing, even if its using the Lokomat etc?

Is the aim to progress to walking aided or otherwise? Or would the offer this to people to exercise etc to maintain or build up your body in anticipation for the cure?

Not really on bout the "official" line, but interested in the 'vibes' you get about this and the way they appear to approach it all.

Sorry to hijack the thread but I think its all part of the same thing.

Some people are given false hopes, others none. Maybe there needs to be a balance.


Take care,

K

[hockeydahc]

I would consider any movement while upright walking if it involves a bend in the knee, and at least a reasonable speed, even if it's slow. if it takes you 5 minutes to cross a greatroom, it's just not practical outside of PT excersize. although why define it so deeply that anything but AB walking is acceptable. Don't be so close-minded that you expect to go back to AB quality after an SCI. the device is called a "walker" and the phrase goes: he/she "walks" with a cane.

wall squats are great for strengthening legs if you can do em. PT should be able to provide numerous home excersizes. and the more you walk, the more you'll get better at it.

[carole338]

I can’t bend my knees nor do wall squats. The exercises they gave me at rehab for at-home therapy are for upper body strength, standing and walking with a walker and I can even use the Loftstrand braces with assistance.

I know I’ll never be able to go back to normal walking, but I would like to know the success stories and the possibilities.

Carole

This post has been edited by carole338: 06 December 2007 - 03:32 PM

[Illinois Boy]

carole338, on Dec 6 2007, 09:32 AM, said:

I can’t bend my knees nor do wall squats. The exercises they gave me at rehab for at-home therapy are for upper body strength, standing and walking with a walker and I can even use the Loftstrand braces with assistance.

I know I’ll never be able to go back to normal walking, but I would like to know the success stories and the possibilities.

Carole

You are very, very Blessed...........

I'd give anything to use my hands, or stand up......

Jim

[rhyang]

One of the guys who came in while I was in rehab was asia C - he'd just somehow woken up with a blood clot in his cervical spine. Scary ... seems like it could happen to anyone ... anyway, I was discharged about 2 weeks before his discharge date, and didn't manage to keep up with him, but he had a pair of AFO's I think and was walking around in those and a walker. He might well have improved since I saw him last ...

I'm presently going to a gym with an adapted fitness program - one of the staff got hurt years ago in a skydiving accident and walks with a single forearm crutch and a pair of AFO's I believe (his injury was lower down - I think he can't bend his feet).

My own injury was strange because it only seemed to affect muscles on my left extremities. I started out with a walker and a single AFO, then progressed to forearm crutches, a single crutch, then a cane, and right now I'm walking without the AFO or cane on level ground at a pretty good clip. On hills my left leg still fatigues easily and I use a cane or trekking pole for balance.

Once during an inpatient support group there was a guy visiting who had participated in Project Walk. He had a single forearm crutch and some kind of electrical stimulator that pulsed one of the muscles in his lower leg ... I forget what it was called.

[Ches]

Ryan, the guy with the electro stim sounds like he's on the verge of becoming Darth Vader. I still havent figured out why they cant come up with some full body suit that pumps that electr stim, and makes your ass walk. Im not sure how to explain it. There are no details or real patent here. I just cant see why we can fly through a burning atmosphere and land on a rock traveling thousands of miles a second, towards us. ANd we cant fix this walking issue. Its f*@king gay, pardon my french!


KewlKitty, Your question is hard a tough one indeed. Improvments proove benefical obviously, in any case. Their study is actually more about testing muscle contractions in synch with the range of motion. They are looking for consistancy. Honestly, I dont much more about it than that. I know the information is online to look up. I never really got into the "why's". I was told my H reflexes would be tested, and I would spend about the first 10 minutes letting the machine do ALL the work, the next 20 minutes I would bare my own weight.

They don't spend much time focused on the 'other positive gains of standing'. Im not so sure I understand what you mean by that... Do they focus on the random returns..? Not really, Just walking. They do check your progress and like to keep up with the diagnosis.

What I did, was just a 4 session study. The Training Program was and is full, till January. So I cant say I know what all is entailed in the LokoMat Study. I know they arent working on the upper body in anticipation. The training and walking is what they have to offer, they will send you to PT if needed.

Their entire purpose is to test the H reflexes. Their theory is that repetitious Range of Motion can regenerate, or reactive, or even reroute those weak nerve signals.

All in all, the lokomat is killer. It holds you upright in a familiar position. They carefully measure and locked your legs into place.. They wont start walking you until you are perfectly symmetrical and everything is just right. Its very assuring. After a session I felt 1000 times better. My legs definitly loved it. Just 30 minutes can do an amazing bit on the leg muscles.

This post has been edited by Ches: 08 December 2007 - 01:21 AM

[kewlcatkez]

Ches, on Dec 8 2007, 01:17 AM, said:

They don't spend much time focused on the 'other positive gains of standing'. Im not so sure I understand what you mean by that...

Hi Ches,

thanks for that! its very interesting.

What I meant by the 'other positive gains of standing' is:

reducing the risk of osteoporosis by standing and other weight bearing, which has an effect on the amount of fractures, bone density etc., ( ie do they measure bone density?)

lung capacity and diaphragm movement, ( do they measure these?)
spiromentry ( lung capacity calculated by output into a machine)

Circulatory benefits ( do they look into that? some facilities have advanced dopplers which look into the exact miniscule changes in pressure)
Has an effect on risks of PVD ( peripheral vascular disease)

tied into the above, the ? reduction in risks of pressure sores due to enhanced circulation etc

so thats sort of what I was eluding to, sorry to be so cryptic! I sometimes let my brain run faster than my typing! I hope the above explains it a tad.

Thanks for all the info, and yes I agree that it is crazy to have space travel etc and not be able to figure out 'walking'.

Take care,

K

also Ches,

I bet that it was a killer indeed, to have a taste of walking again and it only be for 4 sessions, nether the less, I am sure that you are happy to have done them, yes?

This post has been edited by kewlcatkez: 08 December 2007 - 01:08 PM

[rhyang]

Ches, on Dec 7 2007, 05:17 PM, said:

the guy with the electro stim sounds like he's on the verge of becoming Darth Vader. I still havent figured out why they cant come up with some full body suit that pumps that electr stim, and makes your ass walk. Im not sure how to explain it. There are no details or real patent here.

Had a second to google it - I saw something before, but I'd bet this product is what he was using. The site says it stimulates the peroneal nerve. Googling 'peroneal nerve stimulation leg' seems to pull up a bunch of stuff.

The impression I'm getting is that walking is a fairly complex process, particularly where it concerns balance. I worked for months to be able to balance on my left foot, and it's still only about 30-40 seconds at a time (muscle control / proprioception in my right foot seems intact). Even making robots walk with the same sophistication as a human being is still a technical challenge ... the full body suit is probably still a long way off ... seems we have much to learn about how the miracle that is the human body works.

[Suzukicrash]

Don't ever let anyone tell you that you can't walk. Even if your legs don't work and you are in a wheelchair, you can walk. Remember you're not handicapped, you are handi-capable lol

This post has been edited by Suzukicrash: 08 December 2007 - 10:05 PM

[MX Crash]

carole338, on Dec 4 2007, 07:22 PM, said:

I was diagnosed as a T10/11, incomplete, ASIA C in February 2007. I worked hard and long through rehab to get to an L2. I have been released from rehab and told I have gone as far as I can and reached my goals of ‘walking’. I can stand up with full leg braces and a walker and ‘walk’ around on level ground. This ‘walking’ is actually moving my hips and they move my legs. I have very little movement in my quadrilaterals and ankles.

When I read about Project Walk and all the articles on recovery.does this mean a normal gait or is it with a walker. I get great hope when I read the percentages of those expected to walk. I need to know what is meant by walking and is here specific exercises for achieving this. Does this sound stupid?

carole 338 ,
don't ever think your not going to get better,because I am 2 and a half years in to my injury and I'm amased how far I have come. I'm a L1/t12 injury the doctor told me I wouldn't walk again .I honestly think you will get more back if you think positivly and don,t settle for anything less than a 100%. granted I walk like a drunken sailer, but I dont fall down. I have even got some bladder functions working again, which we all know helps life a little better. well have a great christmas and a happy new year to everybody hope to talk to every body more this year.
mx crash

[carole338]

Thanks mx crash,

I really need to hear how someone else progressed after being told they would never walk again. I’m glad you are doing so well. I’d take ‘drunken sailer’ right now. I know the task in front of us is long and exhausting, and little things can set us back. Thanks for the encouragement. Have a Merry Christmas and a fabulous New Year!!!

Carole

[Ches]

Hey Carole .. so sorry I havent responded sooner. I forget all the post I get involved with.

Anywho..

To answer your questions, they do mention the benefits of muscle tone, bone density, circulation, and over all posture. Without a doubt they are healthy side effects. But, they dont take the time to measure the bone, lungs, diaphram.. and whatever else.

Again I wasnt accepted into the FULL study, so I dont have the entire experience to describe. I just know what happened with my mere sessions. I know ur leg mass is measured through out b/c the straps that wrap around the legs must be precise. They have no choice but to keep up with it.

I dont know how good it is for pressure sores, but I would imagine great..IF the straps didnt rub on a sore. I have scars where the straps around my lower calf eventually rubbed me raw. Luckily it didnt hurt, and it wasnt that bad.. but still.

[carole338]

Thanks Ches,

I was supposed to be part of a Locomotor study but, fortunately, my level of injury dropped from T10/11 to L2. Unfortunately, I was not qualified for the full study. I was put on the Litegait treadmill for a few weeks but no data on my leg mass was put into the system. I did feel the benefit from standing and simulated walking. Now I am at home without outside rehab. I will continue with my exercise of standing and walking with a walker for the 2 to 3 hours a day and keep up the benefits.

Thanks and Happy Holidays.
Carole