12 replies to this topic

[Tarkus]

I have a question. I have a friend that is looking into having work done at The Laser Spine Institute LLC in Tampa.

Does anyone have first hand knowledge of this procedure and The Laser Institute in particular.


The Laser Institute has a procedure that is supposed to be minimally evasive to take care of this.

* DDD @ C3/4, C4/5, C7/T1
* Bulge/Herniation as noted above
* Spinal Stenosis as noted above
* Foraminal Narrowing @ C2/3.C3/4, C4/5,C5/6, C6/7 , C7/T1

My main question is have you ever heard of this type of procedure or The Laser Spine Institute ?

http://www.laserspin..../foraminotomy/

He thinks he has his answer after Pm's from this groups finest minds.

Happy New Year,
Alan
__________________

[kewlcatkez]

Hi Tarkus,

I haven't got any personal experience, but I wanted to share the stuff below in case it is of use:

With regards to Foraminotomy (Laser), Endoscopic Posterolateral Foraminotomy with instruments provides us with some research:

Quote

Results
There was no conversion from endoscopic to open procedure
Complications were: transient quadriceps paresis: 1, temporary dysesthesia: 5, thrombophlebitis: 1, pulmonary embolism: 1
On 62 procedures, 11 were too recent, 1 was lost of view. We count 16 (32%) very good results, 21 (42%) good results, 6 (12%) fair, and 7 (14%) failures. In the 6 fair results, 2 patients had a second procedure for treatment of remaining lumbalgia to complete the relief of radicular pain obtained by the foraminotomy: one surgical treatment of associated central stenosis, one arthrodesis. Among the 7 failures, 3 necessitated a subsequent arthrodesis. Globally, it makes 86% of improved patients, and 14% failures.
The motor disorders ( 3 quadriceps paresis, 3 incomplete foot drops) have all recovered with a normal strength.

and conclude:

Quote

Conclusions
The indication for endoscopic foraminotomy has to be considered for all isolated and well localised foraminal stenosis, especially in weak patients with high comorbidity, where the open surgery in supine position is contra-indicated.
Third generation Holmium-YAG laser and its reusable tool for side fire is a promising treatment for the discal, ligamentous and particularly osseous component of foraminal stenosis under direct vision, with optimized energetic capacity and minimum risk of radicular wounds.

It may interest you to read this regarding funding for these types of surgeries: Medical Policy Percutaneous Techniques It would appear that most insurance companies take the stance, as moct Spinal surgeons do also, that these types of procedure although very valuable and useful are still considered "Investigational/not medically necessary". They get away with this because they state they feel that this type of procedure has lower success rates than conventional surgery for the majority ( 70-87% I think is quoted elsewhere) so it is illogical ( to them) to do the laser. Of course that os no use if looking at each case independently, and obviously some people need laser, if any surgery at all ( very high risk groups).
That may also be why the success rates are lower - higher risk clients having the procedure most of the time, and out of pocket sometimes.

Its something to consider if your friend is having the procedure done in the USA. It may be that the insurance co will not pay out, without a fight.

Please see the folowing: comparative studies

There are many more papers in the literature, but I suspect you may already have seen those.


Take care,

K

[jp1]

Please feel free to contact me directly at the Laser Spine Institute. The number is 813-289-9613 ext. 324. My name is John, and I am the Director of Research there. I will be happy to answer any questions.

Tarkus, on Jan 1 2008, 01:20 PM, said:

I have a question. I have a friend that is looking into having work done at The Laser Spine Institute LLC in Tampa.

Does anyone have first hand knowledge of this procedure and The Laser Institute in particular.


The Laser Institute has a procedure that is supposed to be minimally evasive to take care of this.

* DDD @ C3/4, C4/5, C7/T1
* Bulge/Herniation as noted above
* Spinal Stenosis as noted above
* Foraminal Narrowing @ C2/3.C3/4, C4/5,C5/6, C6/7 , C7/T1

My main question is have you ever heard of this type of procedure or The Laser Spine Institute ?

http://www.laserspin..../foraminotomy/

He thinks he has his answer after Pm's from this groups finest minds.

Happy New Year,
Alan
__________________

[Ctadel72]

I have personal knowledge in this area, having had endoscopic laser surgery on my neck (C3-C4 discs) at the Laser Spine Institute in Tampa, Florida on July 13, 2006. I’d like to share my story and my findings with you.

The Laser Spine Institute (LSI) enjoys a reputation that is second to none among the finest medical facilities in this state. I own no stock or shares of ownership in this company and I have no vested interest in this organization other than wanting to see them prosper and protected from unwarranted negative accusations and insinuations. I am not compensated in any form for the charitable things I say on their behalf.

Before I contracted with LSI to operate on my neck I vetted them, researching their record in great detail (as well as many other facilities and surgeons offering this type of procedure). What I found was that LSI had, and continues to have, a spotless record and an enviable reputation. Things I discovered about LSI are: over an 80% success/satisfaction rate ... no post-operative complications from surgeries ... no lawsuits ... no AMA or state board of medicine sanctions or disciplinary actions … a long list of satisfied patients who gladly serve with enthusiasm as non-compensated references, fielding calls from those who are contemplating having surgery performed there. I have now joined the people in that group of gratified clientele and I can attest to the effectiveness of their surgery in treatment of cervical stenosis and facet joint problems. They have an extensive and impressive record of successful back operations as well.

Post-operatively, I am now pain-free and symptom-free. I have total flexibility and no trouble completing tasks that require physical labor and dexterity. If you’d like to hear more about my experience I would be happy to recount my story in more detail. Just say the word.

-- Citadel72

[backinpain]

'''Laser Spine Institute'''

Many people have looked for articles on the web about this alternative health care facility in Tampa, Florida.

There are positive and negative reports around the internet about them. This should help for anyone to conclude if Laser Spine Institute should be a medical institution for back surgery.

Laser Spine Institute is an alternative Medical facility that performs Laser-assisted Spine Surgery of the back. Laser Spine Institute has approximated a claimed of surgery successes rate of 90% for the procedures done at their facility.

This Medical facility has been known to have a nominal charge ranging from $15,000 to $30,000 dollars for any back procedure performed at the facility. This charge is usually collected upfront before any back procedures is done. Everyone must send their MRI to LSi to let LSI verify they can attempted back surgery on you, then you make an appointment to talk to the doctors of Laser Spine Institute in Tampa, Florida about your MRI to verify you can become a surgery recipient at the cost of a non-refundable $2,500.00 first office visit.

remember this is not mainstream medicine and has been around since the 1980s, so please consider it alternative medicine, there is a hugh price to pay if you attempted it. so find the best in the field for it like a neurosurgeon not an orthopedic surgeons. There are better alternatives out there than this place.

i would not go to LSI just from hearing the botched surgeries they have had, and the bad stories, hearing that LSI treats you like are buying a car under very fast pace and manipulative car sales man tactics by LSI staff when you go in for your first appointment and LSI staff members makes the situation seem like it is now or never to get you to agree to a surgery right at that moment, does not seem right, and reading on the web about how some patients who have had failed surgeries from LSI, I believe they are being treated like lepers, Hearing these horror stories about LSi actions doesn't appear to be professional... I believe this should be warning to everyone...

Make sure you question everything about Laser Spine institute. I mean everything, from each doctors credentails to where they went to school to who board certified them. From my research these thing just don't add up for Laser Spine institute doctors. From reports around the web they say that some doctors are very good to the patients but for 30,000 dollars you will get a pleasant smile and warm handshake from anyone. I wouldn't let anything slip by you, I would suggest taking a lawyer with you during your first visit and any visit there after, even to the surgery, just to make sure everything remains legitmate.


from another blog site about laser spine institute

Snake Oil Please Read

I have seen Dr. Choy, a neurosurgeon on faculty at Columbia Univ Medical, who developed a laser procedure to treat herniated discs only. I have spinal stenosis, which he could not help with. he advised open back surgery which I will not do. He told me that LSI, Micro institute and Bonati are FRAUDULENT. they are scams and out to steal your money. period. If insurance companies will not pay up there is a reason. There are legitimate procedures - Foothills Pain center in S. Carolina does Choy's procedure for herniation, X Stop at St. Mary's Medical in San Francisco is legitimate but only works on certain cases. Lastly look at the doctors and their credentials. you want to see a degree in neurosurgery and membership in accredited neurosurgery organizations. phony degrees from phony caribbean medical schools are rampant in the world of laser back treatment. Do not let any so called doctor without a degree in neurosurgery touch your back. Nerve blocks work for some people with some symptoms. as does cortisone. PLEASE DO A HUGE AMOUNT OF DUE DILIGENCE BEFORE GIVING A PENNY TO A FLORIDA OUTFIT. DO NOT LET YOUR PAIN RULE YOUR JUDGMENT.the best and only proven course is exercise and rigorous physical therapy. also either eat a whole lot of wild salmon or double dose or salmon oil or flaxseed oil. over time that will help the condition, whatever it is.
Last edited by olenska : Mar 29, 2008 at 08:07 AM.


and another

ThoreauFan ThoreauFan is offline
Senior Member
(male)

Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 265

Re: NS, Ortho, Minimally Invasive, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qtant36 View Post
Have you heard of the LaserSpine Institute? Just curious because you seem to be pretty knowledgable.
I'll throw in a caveat because I believe these decisions are deeply personal. As my grandpa used to say, "If everybody wanted the same thing they'd all be chasing grandma." LSI may be the right choice for you.

There are many options out there and no one size fits all solution.

My opinion is just that; ONE person's opinion.

I had not heard of LSI.

I did a search, though, and one of their click ads showed up on ******; they know how to use modern marketing tools very well. The web site is pretty and professionally designed. LSI is in FL which just happens to be the state where I would open up such a center because of the aging, wealthy retired population (it provides a wonderful market opportunity $).

The lead surgeon is a Doctor of Osteopathy, not an M.D.

I can't tell what governing body "Board Certifed" the surgeon.

I particularly enjoyed the "Chief Spine Surgeon" prominently displaying having had received the 2005 "Physician of the Year" award for Orthopaedic Surgery from the American Association of Physician Specialists.

The designating body's requirements?

"The Physician of the Year award may be presented by each academy of medicine to a member who has contributed to the growth, recognition, and leadership of the academy." In 2006, the body's Orthopaedic Surgery "academy" did not even award such a designation to anyone.

I downloaded the organization's "Degree of Fellow" application, BTW.

What exactly is a "Diplomat" or "Fellow" of the American Academy of Neurologic and Orthopaedic Surgeons? You would have to visit the web site of the "Academy" to find out. They provide "Board Certification" for their members. Being a "Fellow" International College of Surgeons is even more impressive; their dues may be paid via credit card using PayPal.

Curiously, the "Chief Spine Surgeon" of the institute does not mention where his internship or residency were performed. But why would he need to with all those impressive credentials?

Apparently, LSI does not have relationships with insurers.

I'm sure LSI helps many people and its personnel are qualified.

Having viewed the web site, my opinion is that someone saw an opportunity to make a whole lot of money outside the coventional system of medical care and gave birth to LSI. Personally, I would not use any physician who has an outside financial interest; labs, outpatient centers, etc.

FYI: Minimally invasive options are widely available.

I'm curious, did you pick LSI because of its location?

...................................................................

The founding Doctors of Laser Spine Institute Were employed by Dr. Bonati.

http://www.sptimes.c...sues_over.shtml
http://www.sptimes.c...nnovative.shtml
http://www.skepsis.nl/bonati-eng.html


''The founding Doctors of Laser Spine Institute are''


Dr Michael Perry [Medical Director]

Dr Glenn Hamburg [anesthesiologist]

Dr Craig R. Wolfe M.D. Surgeon

Dr James St Louis D.O. and Chief Spine Surgeon

http://www.healthgra...m#tabExperience

Healthgrades .com does verify the doctors on there website...

like this doctor

http://www.healthgra...tabIntroduction

Healthgrades.com for some reason or another does not verify Dr ST louis's stated facts about his medical credentials. The more i dig, I believe the more this man looks like a fraud.

Kennedy Medical Center Cherry Hill, NC, 1995 for a one year residency, and I can't even find this medical institution in Cherry Hill or any mention of it except on health grades website and Dr st-louis LSI website.

Dr ST Louis hospital affliation is non-existant on the West Florida hospital website.

Dr. James St. Louis, chief spine surgeon at the Laser Spine Institute and the American Association of Physician Specialists' 2005 PHYSICIAN OF THE YEAR for Orthopaedic Surgery... His title is non-verifiable on the web or the AAPS website, is he so trustworthy...

http://www.aapsga.org/about/index.html

this founder of LSI is to be trustworthy???????

blogs about LSI>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

http://answers.yahoo...27205816AAM7nvh

http://messageboard....c.phppid=167324

http://www.healthboa...ad.php?t=530195

http://askville.amaz...questId=7621379

http://www.topix.com...E3K3357MGPHDA2I

http://answers.googl...dview?id=747123



'''''Legal Problems at Laser Spine Institute'''''

They have been verified reports of dishonest faulty credentials from another trustworthy doctor from LSI to infringement of intellectual property copy rights by LSI...

http://dockets.justi...case_id-210271/

http://www.credentia...rts/bwimc.shtml

http://www.medicalma...nal-Conduct.cfm

I beleieve Dishonesty runs rampant at LSI

********************************************************************************
***********
here are some interesting places you could visit to read up on for your pain and understanding. They talk about spinal injections and write in detail about the procedure.

http://www.ajnr.org/...full/25/10/1821

http://radiographics...t/full/21/4/927

http://www.spineuniv...rticle1510.html .... contains very useful information. if you read all the links from this site.

**************************************** ******************
there is also neucloplasty...

Unique New Radio Wave Procedure Called Promising for Low Back Pain Associated With Contained Herniated Discs
4/29/2002Â*

http://sci.rutgers.e...ead.php?t=44539

http://www.spineuniv...rticle1485.html

You will have to do your own reaseach as this website won't let me post copyrighted material or links to other message boards
**************************************** ******************
These is also prolotherapy...

Sugar-water injections help chronic pain

http://sci.rutgers.e...ead.php?t=44651

You will have to do your own reaseach as this website won't let me post copyrighted material or links to other message boards
**************************************** ******************
for spinal replacement this is the newest doctor in the midwest to successfully implant the new types of fda approved spinal mechanical parts

http://www.centerforspinecare.com/

**********************************************************

'''Alternative Places of Interest for back related problems'''
must read very informative

http://www.healthboa...isplay.php?f=18

http://www.spinecenter.ucla.edu/

http://www.nmpi.com/default.htm

http://www.independe....com/index.html

http://www.lordexspi.../Home_Page.html

http://www.certhealt...CFSQqagodLxSHYg

http://www.centerforspinecare.com/

You can reasearch any health issue at this website...
http://www.ncbi.nlm....ntrez?db=pubmed

Good write up...
http://www.back-pain...sof surgery.htm

This doctor is a pioneer in back surgery
http://turjdf.org/aas/1995/no1-1.html


why does laser spine institute need lobbyist???

http://leg.state.fl....?...titute, LLC

Edited by backinpain, 09 June 2008 - 01:23 AM.

[BobJannis]

Had surgery at LSI. Be very cautious. I nearly died. I had a cervical issue and had suregry by them. I had a dural leak and they had an ambulance take me to the hotel room which the EMT told me was highly unusual for them to do that. Later I started losing feeling in my arm and call the ambulance again. they took me to a hospital and I had emergent suregry for a hemorage. Now I have limited function of my right arm. My life is ruined. The docs at LSI do not have any hospital priveleges. My attorney told me they have numerous lawsuits pending and now I am one of them. I went to one of their competitors called Microspine and they stopped the pain but I am still left with severe weakness. After thinking about it, the only people who appear to have a good result sound like phoony people like citadel guy above. My results was horrible and I am not the only one. I am looking into calling medicare becasue I have heard that they aren't supposed to charge you if you're a medicare patient since the doctors are medicare providers. Maybe I can get some money back. My job is gone and it is a very sad situation. I would recommend microspine since they did fix my initial problem but LSI, they are just a bunch of greedy people.

[Jax]

Ctadel72, on Feb 18 2008, 12:40 AM, said:

I have personal knowledge in this area, having had endoscopic laser surgery on my neck (C3-C4 discs) at the Laser Spine Institute in Tampa, Florida on July 13, 2006. I’d like to share my story and my findings with you.

The Laser Spine Institute (LSI) enjoys a reputation that is second to none among the finest medical facilities in this state. I own no stock or shares of ownership in this company and I have no vested interest in this organization other than wanting to see them prosper and protected from unwarranted negative accusations and insinuations. I am not compensated in any form for the charitable things I say on their behalf.

Before I contracted with LSI to operate on my neck I vetted them, researching their record in great detail (as well as many other facilities and surgeons offering this type of procedure). What I found was that LSI had, and continues to have, a spotless record and an enviable reputation. Things I discovered about LSI are: over an 80% success/satisfaction rate ... no post-operative complications from surgeries ... no lawsuits ... no AMA or state board of medicine sanctions or disciplinary actions … a long list of satisfied patients who gladly serve with enthusiasm as non-compensated references, fielding calls from those who are contemplating having surgery performed there. I have now joined the people in that group of gratified clientele and I can attest to the effectiveness of their surgery in treatment of cervical stenosis and facet joint problems. They have an extensive and impressive record of successful back operations as well.

Post-operatively, I am now pain-free and symptom-free. I have total flexibility and no trouble completing tasks that require physical labor and dexterity. If you’d like to hear more about my experience I would be happy to recount my story in more detail. Just say the word.

-- Citadel72

I don't know about anyone else here, but the way this one was written by Ctadel72 makes it sound REALLY phony. Particularly when there are lawsuits pending the group, and Ctadel72 says there are none. I wonder--Did anyone else reading this immediately get the impression that this Ctadel72 is making a bit too much of a point about not having any personal investment in LSI?? Just curious. I know I've said things about the AUS surgery I had that were possibly extra-positive, but I can prove what I've said. This guy seems to be quite the advertiser for LSI. Did anyone else wonder if maybe this guy was on the payroll?

[Apparelyzed]

Hi,

Both Backpain and Ctadel72 have been having ago at each other here as well.

http://www.topix.net...357MGPHDA2I/p33

I don't know if Ctadel72 is associated with LSI, but reading his posts reveals his email address to show him heavily involved with www.thehornegroup.org and his location is shown as Florida.

Hope the helps

Simon

[BobJannis]

It is unfortunate that places like LSI might actually have fake people. They spend millions on advertising and lord knows they have my $30000. Is the horne group the venture capital company that owns laser spine institute? I've never heard of them but I have heard of the guy bill horne who is the CEO of the company. Please, please, wherever you go, make sure your doctors have hospital priveleges. Don't be like me and get rushed to the er with a hemmorage that Laser spine sent me to a hotel room with. Also, check out the doctors credentials. i have learned, post haste, that many of the LSI doctors are not M.D.'s, are not board certifed, and besides working for LSI have never done anything in laser spine suregry. My arm is shot. They never called me after I was in the hospital or even after I was released. They wouldn't return my calls. What thype of healthcare people do such things? I have heard on another site that they commit medicare fraud. Not sure if this is true but supposebly since their doctors are medicare providers, they are not alllowed to charge for the surgery since medicare does pay for it. Supposebly if you call medicare and complain you can possibly get your money back. maybe even the government will shut them down.

Also I have a question. My latest MRI shows that I have something called a syrginomelia on my cord. Is this related to the spinal cord injury that I suffered from at laser spine institute. does anyone know what that means?

[broken]

I had a nightmare experience with Laser Spine Institute. Dr. Craig Wolff appeared impaired to me when he operated on my spine at LSI in February 2009. He tore my spinal cord (dura) causing spinal fluid to leak into my body cavity after operating on a level not indicated in the initial examination and surgery order. Sent me to a hotel room to recover. I am in unspeakable pain now. I wondered if Craig Wolff was under the influence when he practiced on me, so on a hunch, I looked up arrest records in Hillsborough County where he practices. Sure enough, he was arrested for driving under the influence about three weeks after my surgery. RUN - don't walk away.(while you still can)

http://www.hcso.tamp...disp/bn=0901237

[broken]

broken, on Aug 5 2009, 09:44 PM, said:

I had a nightmare experience with Laser Spine Institute. Dr. Craig Wolff appeared impaired to me when he operated on my spine at LSI in February 2009. He tore my spinal cord (dura) causing spinal fluid to leak into my body cavity after operating on a level not indicated in the initial examination and surgery order. Sent me to a hotel room to recover. I am in unspeakable pain now. I wondered if Craig Wolff was under the influence when he practiced on me, so on a hunch, I looked up arrest records in Hillsborough County where he practices. Sure enough, he was arrested for driving under the influence about three weeks after my surgery. RUN - don't walk away.(while you still can)

http://www.hcso.tamp...disp/bn=0901237

Wrong url, try this: http://www.hcso.tamp...isp/bn=09012378

[newwife08]

My husband did not go there for treatment, because our insurance wouldn't cover any part of it. They want you to pay up front for all the services and there is no way that most people can afford it.

After we initially contacted them for information, and then found out about having to pay upfront, we decided that it wasn't an option for us. They did tell my husband up front that he'd be recovering in a hotel room, and not at a hospital. I wasn't thrilled with that thought. Nothing like having major surgery on a risky part of your body and not having the proper follow-up care afterwards.

Well, for months after we told them we weren't interested, they continued to call us. It took about 8 months for them to get the hint that we weren't going to come to see them.

My husband did some pretty extensive research on them and found some pretty unsavory information about them and how they treated their "patients". I woulnd't wish that facility on anyone!

[Jax]

newwife08, on Aug 6 2009, 07:40 PM, said:

My husband did not go there for treatment, because our insurance wouldn't cover any part of it. They want you to pay up front for all the services and there is no way that most people can afford it.

After we initially contacted them for information, and then found out about having to pay upfront, we decided that it wasn't an option for us. They did tell my husband up front that he'd be recovering in a hotel room, and not at a hospital. I wasn't thrilled with that thought. Nothing like having major surgery on a risky part of your body and not having the proper follow-up care afterwards.

Well, for months after we told them we weren't interested, they continued to call us. It took about 8 months for them to get the hint that we weren't going to come to see them.

My husband did some pretty extensive research on them and found some pretty unsavory information about them and how they treated their "patients". I woulnd't wish that facility on anyone!

Glad he didn't go. I know what it's like to have surgery and have terrible aftercare. My ortho spine surgeon that did my second surgery had me discharged because of the horrible aftercare I was receiving. He actually told me I'd be better off at home! Anyway, best wishes to you both.