22 replies to this topic

[a la carte]

Hi Everyone! This is my very first post. I've been reading lots of the posts here and think this is a great forum! I am very interested in hunting, motorsports, tennis, etc., though I do more hunting lately than any of the others. Hope to get back into tennis some!

I had a tumor removed from my spine in 1982 (I was almost 21) and have remained very active ever since. Two fusions ('98 and '03) have left me with 8 vertabrea fewer that flex and twist, but I still like to rock and roll...

I've been using an XTR since they first came out and am now modifying it. Please take a look at what I'm doing and let me know if you've had similar thoughts or experience with Frog Legs stuff.

Since I'm 6' 2 with a 36" inseam, I always felt cramped in the chair, even though my feet were nearly scraping the ground. In order to get some leg room and ground clearance, I put 26" wheels in the back and made my own forks to try some very cheap 6" casters. Worked great, so I splurged on the Frog Legs stuff. I finally installed everything. Here are some thoughts and questions:

The forks and bigger wheels were a fantastic improvement over original. It was so much easier to get over grass and gravel with the 6" wheels instead of 4" (both 1" wide). Originally was just a test with the cheapest ($30) wheels that I could find on ebay.... Didn't take long for the wheel bearings to take a crap and have "speed wobbles" all the time!!!! I couldn't even keep up with someone walking on hard surfaces.

These new Frog Legs brand wheels and forks cost nearly $400.... YIKES!!!! ($100 for the wheels, over $250 for the forks.) There is a black urethane "bumper" in these forks, and the urethane wheels are 1.5" wide and about as "thick." They cruise nearly effortlessly over our grass and the gravel road up the side of the house. And they're QUIET, too. I really like 'em and hope they last a while.



And I can go as fast as I want with no speed wobbles!!!!! :-) I haven't taken 'em out for a spin down our steep street yet cuz it's been so cold and rainy........

BUT, I notice that the forks are very BOUNCY, with no damping like a "real" shock absorber has. Don't know if that will be a problem yet, jumping down curbs and off road and stuff.

Kingpin Angle and its Effect

Note the caster pivot is not vertical (the green frame tube is tilted the opposite way). Turns out that caster pivot ("kingpin"*) angle is a big factor in handling. I went "by the book" from Frog Legs when I installed them, and set the angle to zero degrees (vertical). The wheelchair wouldn't track straight at all; kept wanting to dive left or right... Might work fine for wheelchair basketball or other sports, like tennis...? (I really wanna get back into wheelchair tennis, but the weather up here near Seattle ain't so conducive!!!!!)

So I reassembled the chair with as much caster as I could get from the worn XTR components - which is only a couple degrees max. This photo shows the inside of the left wheel so you can see the caster adjustment plates and screws (front of the chair is to the right). Works PERFECT now! Tracks nice when I'm coasting.

Everywhere I look for how to set up casters, they say how important it is to set them vertical - that's so messed up!!!!! Does anyone else agree?

*In automotive terms, the caster pivot is called the "kingpin." The simple mechanics of using a couple degrees of kingpin angle is that, as you turn the car (or chair) left or right, you are actually lifting the weight of the chair and rider. The chair is at its lowest "natural" point when the wheels are straight back (as in rolling forward). That is why it "prefers" to go straight ahead with some kingpin angle. Gravity is holding it down, helping it go straight. More angle gives more resistance to turning because it lifts the chair more.



Design Flaws

The machining and finish on the Frog Legs parts is very nice. At first glance you get a great impression, but then you can find these glaring design flaws...

I'm thinking the bumper pivot will wear badly on the bolt. Has anyone experienced wear here?

There are no bushings or bearings. Guess I'll make some bushings when they get sloppy and noisy (though it would be a lot easier now to find the hole centers...)! There should at least be a zerk fitting to make lubing easier...

The axle screws should be counterbored into the forks to cause less damage to doorways and other stuff that they gouge when you turn in close quarters... :-( Guess I'll have to fix that, too.

Frog Legs has never changed their design as far as I know, and they've been building these for many years. Planned obsolescence at the expense of poor disabled people??? That's so WRONG!

And I gotta see what I can do about the bouncing in the front - I feel like a cholo in a lowrider bouncing down the road! ("Boom chi-chi Boom...." coming from the ghetto blaster!) (No offense - just not my style! )

Cheers!

Doug

[kewlcatkez]

Hi Doug,

Just wanted to say HI, and welcome. Sorry, but I have zero idea regarding the frogs leg castors as I haven't had any personal experience of them. However, there have been a few people here who have posted regarding them before, so hopefully they will chime in.


Take care,

K

[russ1]

Quote

So I reassembled the chair with as much caster as I could get from the worn XTR components - which is only a couple degrees max. This photo shows the inside of the left wheel so you can see the caster adjustment plates and screws (front of the chair is to the right). Works PERFECT now! Tracks nice when I'm coasting.

Everywhere I look for how to set up casters, they say how important it is to set them vertical - that's so messed up!!!!! Does anyone else agree?

*In automotive terms, the caster pivot is called the "kingpin." The simple mechanics of using a couple degrees of kingpin angle is that, as you turn the car (or chair) left or right, you are actually lifting the weight of the chair and rider. The chair is at its lowest "natural" point when the wheels are straight back (as in rolling forward). That is why it "prefers" to go straight ahead with some kingpin angle. Gravity is holding it down, helping it go straight. More angle gives more resistance to turning because it lifts the chair more.

Sorry but I think you're wrong here and I think I know why - mainly because I've been down the same route. I bet you originally set them up as vertical without you in the chair. Problem with that is that when you sit in the chair and weight the elastomer shocks the angle changes and becomes non vertical. I'm betting that if it now works it's because with your weight in the chair the kingpin axle is now vertical.

I had to do mine by a trial and error process after they were horrible when set vertical with no weight in the chair - now they're vertical with me in they work great. If your's aren't vertical with you in the chair there's every chance you'll know all about it first time you get any speed up and the castor flutter acts as a brake - has been known to throw people out of their chairs as the brake effect can happen quite suddenly.

Quote

I'm thinking the bumper pivot will wear badly on the bolt. Has anyone experienced wear here?

There are no bushings or bearings. Guess I'll make some bushings when they get sloppy and noisy (though it would be a lot easier now to find the hole centers...)! There should at least be a zerk fitting to make lubing easier...

Not seen any sign of wear on mine and never heard of anyone having issues with that particular piece. It'd need to be pretty badly worn for them to actually make any noise or cause a problem given that the arc of rotation can't be more than about 5 or 10 deg.

Quote

And I gotta see what I can do about the bouncing in the front - I feel like a cholo in a lowrider bouncing down the road!

They can't be damped but you can get a stiffer elastomer insert to stiffen them up which should make the bouncing better. I'm interested as to how you find suspension front and rear, I'd be worried about a porpoising effect unless both have very well matched damping, or maybe this is why you feel the front is bouncing and it is in fact being amplified by the porpoising effect.

[KimAndSophie]

a la carte, on Jan 18 2008, 03:25 PM, said:

Hi Everyone! This is my very first post. I've been reading lots of the posts here and think this is a great forum! I am very interested in hunting, motorsports, tennis, etc., though I do more hunting lately than any of the others. Hope to get back into tennis some!

I had a tumor removed from my spine in 1982 (I was almost 21) and have remained very active ever since. Two fusions ('98 and '03) have left me with 8 vertabrea fewer that flex and twist, but I still like to rock and roll...

I've been using an XTR since they first came out and am now modifying it. Please take a look at what I'm doing and let me know if you've had similar thoughts or experience with Frog Legs stuff.

Since I'm 6' 2 with a 36" inseam, I always felt cramped in the chair, even though my feet were nearly scraping the ground. In order to get some leg room and ground clearance, I put 26" wheels in the back and made my own forks to try some very cheap 6" casters. Worked great, so I splurged on the Frog Legs stuff. I finally installed everything. Here are some thoughts and questions:

The forks and bigger wheels were a fantastic improvement over original. It was so much easier to get over grass and gravel with the 6" wheels instead of 4" (both 1" wide). Originally was just a test with the cheapest ($30) wheels that I could find on ebay.... Didn't take long for the wheel bearings to take a crap and have "speed wobbles" all the time!!!! I couldn't even keep up with someone walking on hard surfaces.

These new Frog Legs brand wheels and forks cost nearly $400.... YIKES!!!! ($100 for the wheels, over $250 for the forks.) There is a black urethane "bumper" in these forks, and the urethane wheels are 1.5" wide and about as "thick." They cruise nearly effortlessly over our grass and the gravel road up the side of the house. And they're QUIET, too. I really like 'em and hope they last a while.

attachment

And I can go as fast as I want with no speed wobbles!!!!! :-) I haven't taken 'em out for a spin down our steep street yet cuz it's been so cold and rainy........

BUT, I notice that the forks are very BOUNCY, with no damping like a "real" shock absorber has. Don't know if that will be a problem yet, jumping down curbs and off road and stuff.

Kingpin Angle and its Effect

Note the caster pivot is not vertical (the green frame tube is tilted the opposite way). Turns out that caster pivot ("kingpin"*) angle is a big factor in handling. I went "by the book" from Frog Legs when I installed them, and set the angle to zero degrees (vertical). The wheelchair wouldn't track straight at all; kept wanting to dive left or right... Might work fine for wheelchair basketball or other sports, like tennis...? (I really wanna get back into wheelchair tennis, but the weather up here near Seattle ain't so conducive!!!!!)

So I reassembled the chair with as much caster as I could get from the worn XTR components - which is only a couple degrees max. This photo shows the inside of the left wheel so you can see the caster adjustment plates and screws (front of the chair is to the right). Works PERFECT now! Tracks nice when I'm coasting.

Everywhere I look for how to set up casters, they say how important it is to set them vertical - that's so messed up!!!!! Does anyone else agree?

*In automotive terms, the caster pivot is called the "kingpin." The simple mechanics of using a couple degrees of kingpin angle is that, as you turn the car (or chair) left or right, you are actually lifting the weight of the chair and rider. The chair is at its lowest "natural" point when the wheels are straight back (as in rolling forward). That is why it "prefers" to go straight ahead with some kingpin angle. Gravity is holding it down, helping it go straight. More angle gives more resistance to turning because it lifts the chair more.

attachment

Design Flaws

The machining and finish on the Frog Legs parts is very nice. At first glance you get a great impression, but then you can find these glaring design flaws...

I'm thinking the bumper pivot will wear badly on the bolt. Has anyone experienced wear here?

There are no bushings or bearings. Guess I'll make some bushings when they get sloppy and noisy (though it would be a lot easier now to find the hole centers...)! There should at least be a zerk fitting to make lubing easier...

The axle screws should be counterbored into the forks to cause less damage to doorways and other stuff that they gouge when you turn in close quarters... :-( Guess I'll have to fix that, too.

Frog Legs has never changed their design as far as I know, and they've been building these for many years. Planned obsolescence at the expense of poor disabled people??? That's so WRONG!

And I gotta see what I can do about the bouncing in the front - I feel like a cholo in a lowrider bouncing down the road! ("Boom chi-chi Boom...." coming from the ghetto blaster!) (No offense - just not my style! )

Cheers!

Doug

Hi Doug,


Welcome to the board. I've had FrogLegs on my old chair which was a Quickie GT for over 2 years with no problems at all. They have all of the orginal parts, and I've only ever changed the casters themselves. When I got a new Top End Crossfire Titanium I got a new set of FrogLegs. I noticed that with the new chair the FrogLegs seemed like they made the chair more bouncy than my old one, but this new chair actually fits me and is set up different than my old one. It took a few days to get use to it, but they are great. I think that the ones on my old chair stiffened up a bit and I didn't really notice it over time.

FrogLegs do feel a lot different at first, but if you give them time you will get use to them and grow to love them. I would NEVER have a chair without them now!

I just wanted to add that I've also noticed a huge difference in the amount of muscle spasms I have with the FrogLegs. When I didn't have them my legs would jump around almost constantly whenever I even went over the lines in sections of sidewalks! When going over curbs my feet would come right off the footrest, and I wouldn't even dream of going over cobblestone! Now I can go over every kind of surface, smooth or bumpy without any spasms.

[a la carte]

Thanks for the welcomes and replies! I was hoping there was life around here!

russ1, on Jan 18 2008, 01:34 PM, said:

Sorry but I think you're wrong here and I think I know why - mainly because I've been down the same route. I bet you originally set them up as vertical without you in the chair. Problem with that is that when you sit in the chair and weight the elastomer shocks the angle changes and becomes non vertical. I'm betting that if it now works it's because with your weight in the chair the kingpin axle is now vertical.

Russ - You might be onto something. I'll have to measure the angles and report. I just got the sucker together!

I know all about getting spit out the front of this chair!!!! Until now, it's been caused by the terrible rear suspension design and non-damped shock combined with small casters and no ground clearance... (Not to mention my "no fear - attack" attitude!)

As for porpoising, I haven't experienced that yet. I think the suspension frequencies front and rear are too different to worry much about that, but it could turn out there is a resonance... Damping would sure help, eh???

Looks like I found the right place to talk about this stuff!

Thanks all!

Doug

Edited by a la carte, 18 January 2008 - 10:19 PM.

[russ1]

Quote

I know all about getting spit out the front of this chair!!!! Until now, it's been caused by the terrible rear suspension design and non-damped shock

That Rock Shox is supposed to be damped - have you had it serviced recently?

Copied from XTR user manual

Quote

Maintenance
RockShox Deluxe shock line are designed for high performance.To insure this,
we recommend keeping the shaft area, seal cover and bottom out bumper as
clean as possible. It is also recommended that the shock be overhauled by a
qualified mechanic with proper tools once a year.
Over time, the oil inside the shock will degrade and the shock will start to
loose damping.The shock will compress and rebound too fast when damping
loss is significant.This indicates the shock needs to be serviced.This service
should only be performed by a dealer.

I only looked because I used to do a lot of mountain biking and know a bit about Rock Shox - you should be able to get it serviced thro a bike shop. If the oils not been changed for a fair few years that could well be tha cause of your damping issues.

[a la carte]

I know it's supposed to be damped!!!!

When I first got this chair I read that it has "Adjustable Damping" (though I'm pretty sure they called it "dampening") in the sales brochure. I was really excited about this feature, as I have quite a bit of racing experience and know how important it is. But there is no adjustment on the shock except the threaded spring collar for changing ride height (preload).

I had taken the spring off the shock and cycled the shaft manually - zero damping.

So I called Sunrise Medical and spoke to their sales whizzes, who said that the threaded collar is the damping adjustment... GRRRRRR! I got nowhere with these geniuses, trying to explain the difference between spring preload and damping... Eventually, they had one of their product engineers call me. That was interesting! Here was a guy who certainly should have understood the difference but said the same as the sales people - "The threaded collar is the damping adjustment!" By that time I figgered they were just covering their azzes because they were "untrue" in their advertising.

Soon afterwards, they changed their sales literature and removed the words "Adjustable Damping!!!!!" HA!

Anyway, I now have a brandy-new Rock Shock (got it cheap - I regrettably can't afford a Fox shock right now...) with real adjustable damping (a red knob near the "spring" end of the shock) that I need to fit to my chair. Unfortunately, it has a trunion mount at one end that I need to rework... Coming soon!!!

Once I get the new shock in place, I'll take the original one apart and see what I see... I've never bothered to take it anywhere for servicing, and it's never gotten any worse (how could it?)!

Edited by a la carte, 18 January 2008 - 11:45 PM.

[russ1]

You know what the eye to eye shock length is? - I have a spare air fox shock off an old bike in my garage.

[a la carte]

Looks like 5 9/16", from my AutoCAD drawing. I'm in the process of redesigning the entire rear suspension...

[a la carte]

Just for grins I thought I'd show a "before pic." You can see how useless the original casters and ground clearance were! This was a trip to RSA in '04... "Those were the days, my friend." (Mary Hopkins, ca. 1960-something...)

[a la carte]

Hey Russ -

Looks like you were right...

Unloaded (me out of the chair), I have 3 degrees left and 2 degrees right "kingpin" angle. Difference is due to uneven wear on components - I'll fix that.

Loaded (with my butt in the chair), the seat frame tilts back 2 degrees and straightens 'em up a bit, so I end up with 1 degree left and 0 degrees right.

I'm going out for a haircut today, so I'll see if I get any fluttering at all when I get up some speed in the parking lot!

I'll try to see if I notice any porpoising, too. And I'll be able to jump a curb to see how much the front wheels rebound and see how bad it is...

I'm very curious about your spare Fox shock. Let me know its length and how precious it is to you(!). What model is it? Heck, the cost of shipping from the UK these days might be more than it's worth, thanks to the oil mongers...!!!

Anyway, I'm sure glad I found this site and really appreciate your knowledge and help!!!

Salud,

Doug

[russ1]

It's a Fox Float (Air shock) with damping, it's either a 190 or 200mm bolt centre to bolt centre length so would probably be quite a bit too long. 2000 model year

[a la carte]

5.62" is about 143mm, so it would be a fair bit longer. I may end up with a F1-type push-rod activation, with the shock mounted horizontal, so shock length isn't settled yet... I'll check the stroke length and other specs to see if that shock's my holy grail.

SPEED REPORT

Fluttering Speed Wobbles! - Terrible!!! The front casters worked fine around the house and on soft terrain, but once I got up to about jogging speed in the parking lot, they happened!!! Looking at both wheels, the right was out of control while the left looked like it was "toeing the line," just getting a little vibration transmitted by all the wild action on the right.

The right wheel is the one set at 0 degrees when I'm seated at rest. The left one has about 1 degree of kingpin angle... The latter seems to be the way to go.

I'd bet my posture and pushing thrusts are changing the dynamics at speed, especially with the compliance of both front and rear suspension.

So I'm gonna rework the components to allow some adjustment and probably set 'em both at 2 degrees for the next test...

JUMP REPORT Off the Curb! - Nice!!! I only tested it once, due to the cold, pouring rain, but I expected a bounce when the front wheels came back to terra firma... NOT!

Even with the characteristic "XTR Slam***"
***My term - whenever I hit a bump on the rear wheels - like jumping off a curb - the front is slammed to the ground, as if someone shoves the chair forward from behind. In soft terrain, this almost always causes major endos!!!! It is caused by the lousy geometry and exacerbated by the undamped shock... and inadequate ground clearance for my big feet!

Well, I'm havin' fun with this and hope it might help others who have found similar problems...? ("Is there anybody out there?" (Pink Floyd, ca. 1979))

Skoal!

[PsychoSimon]

when I go down curbs, I normally do it soley on my back wheels. I have a quickie argon with schwalbe wild thing 24x2 tyres on it which are quite bouncy. I too found that when going down curbs "level" the back wheels would lift off the floor and cause me to come out of the chair on occasion. It still happens occasionally oing up curbs if I go a bit fast

welcome to the orum as well

[a la carte]

Hi PsychoSimon! Thanks for the welcome! Hope your weather is better than here, but at least I've got Breakfast with The Beatles on the radio to make it better.

I guess I wasn't clear that I landed on my rear wheels first, as always except for when something very bad is about to happen

It's just that the bump or compression of the rear suspension literally slams the front end down when I land...

Cheers,

Doug

Edited by a la carte, 20 January 2008 - 06:40 PM.

[Mikerowaved]

Very nice post Doug. I appreciate the effort you went into to make it as clear as possible and showing the steps you took (and are taking) to try and dial it in.

KimAndSophie, on Jan 18 2008, 02:51 PM, said:

When I got a new Top End Crossfire Titanium I got a new set of FrogLegs. I noticed that with the new chair the FrogLegs seemed like they made the chair more bouncy than my old one, but this new chair actually fits me and is set up different than my old one. It took a few days to get use to it, but they are great. I think that the ones on my old chair stiffened up a bit and I didn't really notice it over time.

My 7-year old A4 (that will get replaced this year with ?) was originally equipped with FrogLegs and I've definitely noticed that they have stiffened up over that time. Don't know if they need to be taken apart and lubed or what, but the ride is not like it used to be.

I've also noticed more wheel wobble rolling downhill at a pretty good clip. Perhaps Russ's "loaded/unloaded" observation applies to my chair as well, since the chair was originally setup with me loading the FrogLegs with a slight amount of give, but now with a lot less flexibility, loaded or unloaded is roughly the same.

I think some of it also has to do with rear axle position as some people (like me) like to keep the axle more forward, keeping the loaded front-end lighter than others may prefer.

[a la carte]

Hi Mike -

I know how much of a PITA it is for me to work on my chair, since it is my only one I often "strand" myself on the couch with a "disabled" wheelchair when I have it disassembled and need another tool! So I usually don't work on it when I'm home alone!!! But even for me (T10 incomplete) it can be darn near impossible to reach around and make caster angle measurements by myself... I guess it might be impossible for lots of guys. That's frustrating, when you know what you want to do but it's just out of grasp!!!! Ahh, the wonderful life we lead, eh?

I'm thinking I'm really onto something with dialing in a bit of caster angle. I'm now set up with about 1 degree on both sides (all I could do for now) and will report after returning from Reno (I'm leaving tomorrow for 6 days).

I'd love to hear from some "speed demons" about how they set up their casters! In motor sports (bikes and cars) there is typically lots more rake (kingpin angle) dialed in when chasing speed records.

Russ's "loaded/unloaded" suggestion was made in regard to compressing my rear shock, which "straightens up" my caster kingpins by about 2 degrees with my butt in the chair. But the angle does change (to a lesser degree due to less weight) in the opposite direction when the Frog Legs compress, too.

It took a while to convince my dad, over the phone, why wheelchair kingpins' caster angle is opposite of that for a car to achieve the same effect!!! (The top is tilted forward, rather than backward.) But he finally "saw" what I was talking about.

I have often leaned over the casters to stop the "fluttering wobblies"... It does have an effect, which supports my theory of dialing in some kingpin angle. In effect, increasing the kingpin angle is like adding weight because it makes the turning (or fluttering) caster raise the front of the chair more when not pointed straight ahead.

As for setting the rear axle farther forward, more power to ya! I like mine farther back so I can muscle up steeper grades. To each his own!!!

I'll definitely have to pay attention to a change in the dimensions/properties of the Frog Legs' "rubber baby buggy bumpers..." Again, it's that "planned" or "built in" obsolescence thing that so disturbs me... Why not use a steel torsion bar for the pivot pin that will be just as cheap (cheaper than?) the urethane bumper and last forever??? GRRRRRRR!!!!

Salud.

Doug

[Hawkeye]

a la carte, on Jan 18 2008, 02:25 PM, said:

I'm thinking the bumper pivot will wear badly on the bolt. Has anyone experienced wear here?

Doug,

I've got Frog Legs on my HP 2, which has been my daily chair for about 5 1/2 years. I've not had any wear or wobble. I just installed them and forgot them. No muss no fuss...

Good Luck...

Joe

[a la carte]

Thanks, Joe! Good to hear that the pivot doesn't seem to get loose. It brightens my day just a tad, as I had to postpone my trip one day (not cancelled.... YET!) due to a particularly, um, [i]inconvenient(!) intestinal disorder.[i] I'm not havin' any fun!!! Well, that's not entirely true - it does give me a great chance to catch up on those soap operas!

Have you noticed any change in the compliance of the bumper over the years?

Doug

[Hawkeye]

a la carte, on Jan 22 2008, 01:13 PM, said:

Have you noticed any change in the compliance of the bumper over the years?

Not really. I'm still using the original polymer inserts. I have gained about 10 pounds since I've had them, but my weight is still with in the range for the inserts it they came with. The frigid weather we are having (and every January) does seem to stiffen them up a bit.

I have the hard composite wheels on mine, and have been thinking about changing them out for the Soft Roll version. I'm just unsure how well they will work when pushing accross frozen gravel parking lots. I'm sorta concerned the Soft Roll might cut or pick up crap.

I need the call the folks in Ottumwa and talk it over with them. Also I wanna ask why their 6" wheels are only 5 1/2". The equiment suppilier I bought my last chair from said "that's just the way they have always been." You'd think folks from Iowa could measure better...

Joe

[a la carte]

Hey Hawkeye! I just got back from Reno (WOW!) and have some news to report that you might appreciate...

It was quite "balmy," like in the 20's , most of the time and a lot of the sidewalks around the hotels are like cobblestone, so I noticed the "stiffies" I got when I went out and the parts cooled off. "It's twue, it's twue!" (Blazing Saddles) The urethane bumpers froze solid as a rock.

I've put quite a few miles on these wheels over the last week or so (including some gravel), and there isn't a single nick in them. I'm very happy with the wheels! And they measure almost exactly 6" (according to my digital caliper).

I'm still learning about the forks, though... Turns out I had about 40-50 pounds of "baggage" on my lap to travel with. All that weight really compresses my rear shock a lot, lowering the back of the chair. I like to make time through the airport terminals, but the "new" angle of the casters brought the Wobble Gremlins right back! The first time I got up to about walking speed I almost lost my whole load!!! Shiite!!!

Gotta work on the angle setup. Obviously I need more angle for when I carry loads. Will it have any bad effect when I'm "unloaded?" I'll just have to see...

Adios,

Doug

Edited by a la carte, 28 January 2008 - 02:26 AM.

[EBSuspension]

russ1, on Jan 18 2008, 05:35 PM, said:

Quote

I know all about getting spit out the front of this chair!!!! Until now, it's been caused by the terrible rear suspension design and non-damped shock

That Rock Shox is supposed to be damped - have you had it serviced recently?

Copied from XTR user manual

Quote

Maintenance
RockShox Deluxe shock line are designed for high performance.To insure this,
we recommend keeping the shaft area, seal cover and bottom out bumper as
clean as possible. It is also recommended that the shock be overhauled by a
qualified mechanic with proper tools once a year.
Over time, the oil inside the shock will degrade and the shock will start to
loose damping.The shock will compress and rebound too fast when damping
loss is significant.This indicates the shock needs to be serviced.This service
should only be performed by a dealer.

I only looked because I used to do a lot of mountain biking and know a bit about Rock Shox - you should be able to get it serviced thro a bike shop. If the oils not been changed for a fair few years that could well be tha cause of your damping issues.

Hey there guys! I just can't wait to get my hands on one of the shocks. As a former motocross racer and now a suspension expert for motocros forks and shocks, i would love to disassemble one to see how sophistacated the valving technology is. Just wanted to know if they are charged with nitrogen on oil like my bike stuff or not. I'm sure i could improve on the design. (maybe it doesn't need it though) Is the extra weight worth it? I just ordered a Quickie GTI with suspension. Hope I'm not disapointed!

[a la carte]

EBSuspension, on Jul 26 2008, 11:07 AM, said:

Hey there guys! I just can't wait to get my hands on one of the shocks. As a former motocross racer and now a suspension expert for motocros forks and shocks, i would love to disassemble one to see how sophistacated the valving technology is. Just wanted to know if they are charged with nitrogen on oil like my bike stuff or not. I'm sure i could improve on the design. (maybe it doesn't need it though) Is the extra weight worth it? I just ordered a Quickie GTI with suspension. Hope I'm not disapointed!

Hey there, EB! We've got a lot in common in our backgrounds.

Go with an air shock, especially with adjustable damping. MUCH lighter than sprung units - and the "spring rate" and ride height is easily adjustable, too. (Only reason I haven't gone with air is because I found an unbelievable deal on a couple of outdated Rock Shox. Really wish I wasn't so cheap!!!)

If you use your chair off the beaten path as much as I do, the extra weight is not even noticed compared to the extra control you gain. But if you don't have much upper body strength it will be quite noticeable.