[Hikkakaru]

I think that no one should have final say on what you can or cannot do with your own body, and from the sound of things there was very few things he could control. Although a year is quite soon after an injury, if his psyche could not allow him to cope with his self proclaimed "second-rate" existance and he actually had the power to do something in accordance to his own wishes, then more power to him.

[topperf]

JT80, on Oct 25 2008, 04:56 PM, said:

i found this a well written piece on the subject.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunio...ugby-Union.html

very well written indeed! and then I see the first comment:

"but the vast majority eventually come through it with the right support and manage to find new meaning and purpose with the level of function they have left." ....
Yes, Peter Saunders is an AB person who has met "several" quads... (rant warning) ...

AAAARRRGHHHH

You imbecile! There's a very long way from "several" to "vast majority"
"come through it" AAAARRRRRGGGH !!! "though it" implicates a end to it (the pain?) or a "other side"
only one is available right now... Moron...
They don't get it... they wont ... I didn't ... I hate every little bit of this condition, I would have prefered any other misfortune (yeah, I know - minus one or two) Would I even have prefered death?
It was never an option for me, for various reasons, but some days...

nnnnggggghhhmuth afoghhnnnbbb, rant over.

[stellaris2]

Read Nomis's Post!

[topperf]

Yes, good Idea, no wait! GREAT idea. thank you.

[Hapahowlee]

topperf, on Oct 25 2008, 12:48 PM, said:

I love Hapa.

JT80, on Oct 25 2008, 01:22 PM, said:

nice hapa. real nice.
great post.

trinity, on Oct 25 2008, 06:28 AM, said:

I have nothing left to add

Well done Hapa

Thank you my dear, sweet friends. I think I got everything out that I was feeling after reading this entire thread and I'm finished. There's nothing more.

Awe T - I love you too. I love all my friends on here. You are all awesome and make this forum so wonderful.

This post has been edited by Hapahowlee: 25 October 2008 - 09:47 PM

[nomis]

Reading your Post, Happa, brings into focus the bizarre ways we often regard death.

For instance, the same people who say it is always wrong for a person to commit suicide may also be in favour of sending a young soldier off to his death in a highly questionable war. Or are opposed to euthanasia but support the death penalty for crime.

I'm a sucker for living. In my experience it beats death every time...but my experiences so far are limited and have favoured living. I don't have the right to judge people who's experience of life goes to places I've never been.

At the time of death, I imagine (for I can't know for sure) that this young sportsman felt a sense of accomplishment, satisfaction and peace - he achieved what he wanted. He must have been very determined.

Whether his decision was right or wrong is irrelevant as there is no answer. Who knows what would have happened if he'd lived another day?

But I think we are right to get upset and argue our opinions as in this thread. Life is sacred and death in very final. It's one hell of a decision to make. I'm sitting in the comfort of my own home, food in the fridge, birds singing in the sun, and I'm in no mindset to understand how bad it is for anyone who is hating life enough to want to end it. But how will I act if my circumstances change?

We should see this young man for the unique person he was and not project on to him the dreams and fears we have for our own lives.

[curbyi]

This was always going to light the blue touch paper on this message board and it has not disappointed.

I've been away for a few days and returned to check my e-mails and it's full of responses on this issue which has split us down the middle.

I'd love to know whether those who say this was wrong have in any way being influenced by their religious beliefs.

Fundamentally do you believe that only God has the right to take life?

Is the whole "Give yourself a chance to adapt to the paralysis" narrative a red herring?

Would he ever be allowed in your eyes to make his choice?

Just a thought, maybe some good Christian folk could let me know their thoughts.


I would also like to elaborate on something that caused offence when I suggested the validity of paraplegics offering their opinion and judgement in Daniels case.

My point is this.

Some of the comments such as he's a wimp who couldn't be bothered to roll down to the gym and get on with life are frankly shameful.

Mercifully for them their experiences differ greatly from many with levels of injury much higher than their own.

We don't all get the opportunity to work hard and slowly regaining independence and take positivity from that improvement and over time take back direct autonomy over our lives.

From what I have read Daniels prognosis was that of someone who was told after extensive medical investigation that he would be reliant upon assistance for help with everything, he was not simply losing the ability to walk (I accept over simplification)

I can see why he felt trapped in a body like a prisoner.

Self autonomy is such a powerful thing and some cannot cope with the loss of it.



Make no mistake any form of paralysis is unquantifiable in the difficulty that it causes on an emotional and physical level but I strongly believe that a quadriplegics outlook may justifiably be less sunny than a paraplegics and add greater validity to their argument.



As for Brian Moore he talks alot of sense both on and off the pitch.
I would say that though as a former member of the front row union.

[sprog24]

[quote name='reaven85' date='Oct 23 2008, 06:00 AM' post='80088']
ASSISTED SUICIDE?!?!
This is the first I have ever heard of that? That is the most sickening thing I have ever heard of? How on earth can someone study your life and then determine its ok to kill yourself?!?
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't suicide tragic? Isn't it just giving up? Also doesn't God frown upon it? I mean I'm sure that if you were meant to die you would have?
How on earth do they assist you? If they can't help than what is it that they do? Oh and someone said that they are trying to do it here in the U.S? Well if people are encouraging suicide than why do we have hotlines and websites and meds for depression/suicide?
Since when did being paralyzed give you a good reason to die? Especially when you have family and friends.
Oh my this really Urks me!

Becoming a quad or a para effects people in different ways! i know i don't wanna end my days suffering! Iknow he had only been injured for a brief time but his suicide didn't effect others, for example jumping in front of a train or a car. Its not gonna lead to all us quads and para's quaking in are chairs that we are in danger of being put down. I myself would be very happy if i was constantly ill, suffering numerous probs year in year out that at some point i might be able to make a decision to end my life in a dignified way. I'm no quiter and also i ead a full life with a wife and family who i love dearly! to be honest personally god doesn't come into it.

[Unbreakable]

Quote

Make no mistake any form of paralysis is unquantifiable in the difficulty that it causes on an emotional and physical level but I strongly believe that a quadriplegics outlook may justifiably be less sunny than a paraplegics and add greater validity to their argument.

People need to get over this "para vs. quad" debate. The REAL debate is "incomplete vs. complete". I am a T-6 complete para. MOST people would automatically think that I would have a higher standard of living than say, a C-5 incomplete quad. Not necessarily so. In rehab, ALOT of INCOMPLETE quads were regaining limited walking, sexual function, limited bowel and bladder, etc. All because they were incomplete. I won't be getting that stuff back due to the nature of my complete injury. When I asked why more high-level quads were incomplete and paras tended to be complete, then answer I was given was, "Most of the time, if a person sustains complete-type trauma at the cervical level, it just outright kills them, whereas the spinal cord can sustain a higher degree of injury at the thoracic level and still allow the body to survive." Of course, there are exceptions to every rule, and there ARE complete cervical-level injuries, but they are not nearly as common as complete thoracic-level and lumbar injuries.

So, it is a falsehood to assume that paras automatically have a higher standard of living than quads. The bottom line is that each of our injuries of different and individual and we should stop comparing them to each other.

[topperf]

Shouldn't we move that discussion elsewhere?

Edit: Condescending remarks removed.

This post has been edited by topperf: 26 October 2008 - 09:11 PM

[chefzapp]

Unbreakable you are Unquestionable, Unanswerable, Unfathomable! Your logic seems to be quite biased by your specific experiences. Your replies seem quite belittling, hateful, and down right ignorant. If the opposed party does not fully agree with your twisted sight on the subject matter, you backlash like a undicisplined child(lash out). You used your fingers to type this reply. Try asking a few other people how they did it! I am a para and the first thing I said to justify my new EXISTENCE is atleast i have my mind and my hands. You say incomplete vs complete means more than quad vs para. I am so greatful I piss on myself at times and have the function to be able to change and shower on my own accord. I can not imagine having to ask some one to hold my dick because I have the urge to pee and cannot do anything about it. Talk about function, there are many scenarios you have not obviously thought fully in depth about! It seems all your replies are laced with underlining factors, u, u, u, u,! Try truly thinking about others situations, limitations, physical and emotional feelings. Try counting your blessings about being a COMPLETE para, I know I do. Well honestly I just pissed myself a lil and need to go change and get cleaned up because there is no one here to help me, seeing that I live totally independent in my completeness! Some of you should be truly ashamed of yourselves for your narrow minded responses on this forum. This is a place for people to find refuge, comfort, and consoulence not be attacked.
Nomis I am not gay(not that there is anything wrong with that), but I LOVE you. Your responses are always so cool headed, articulant, nonbiased, and relevant. I hope I find such insight and wisdom with my passing years.
Happa seeing as i am not gay and I luv ya too, call me sometime? j/k ur posts are always positive, nonjudgemental, and um sometimes funny.
Unbreakable I know this seems like a personal attack but considering your recent posts on this subject I felt you were asking (begging) for it. Feel free to bash me personally all you want, Ill be waiting eagerly.
P.S. Id love to show you what a quad feels like and test how unbreakable you really are, so if you are ever in Texas buddy fell free to give me a ring and we can sign you up for one of those free power chairs cuz you will be needing one!

[russ1]

Nope sorry Unbreakable is a COMPLETE para - thus he has full use of his hands and arms, doesn't (or at least isn't likely) to have the huge pain issues that many incompletes (paras and quads) suffer from. He is or at least can look forward to being independant and not having to have other people feed toilet and bathe him but NO he's still clearly equally as qualified to judge how a highly dependent quad feels as other highly dependent quads and thus quite justfied in judging their actions although knowing nothing about them.

Leave the poor deluded guy alone :-) He clearly has his own ... 'issues'.

The Brian Moore piece was a work of genius.

[Unbreakable]

Quote

P.S. Id love to show you what a quad feels like and test how unbreakable you really are, so if you are ever in Texas buddy fell free to give me a ring and we can sign you up for one of those free power chairs cuz you will be needing one!

I'm going to make this quick, because that is all it is worthy of. Dude, don't threaten me, especially over the internet with empty, hollow, juvenile bullshit you can't and never will have to worry about backing up. IF, however, you have something intelligent to say (I doubt it and I am still waiting), I'll be listening.

Quote

Nope sorry Unbreakable is a COMPLETE para - thus he has full use of his hands and arms, doesn't (or at least isn't likely) to have the huge pain issues that many incompletes (paras and quads) suffer from.

As for you, you don't know me, and don't know about me or any pain I may or may not be experiencing.

This post has been edited by Unbreakable: 26 October 2008 - 10:11 PM

[ems]

Boyz!
Cant you just leave it?

[chefzapp]

Yes you are quit correct, I was way out of line! I let my emotions get the best of me! I do apologize for what I have said. I was trying to prove a point and being a bit brash was the only way I saw fit at that moment! I am embarrassed of how I conducted my retort.

Just as you have stated he does not feel your pain, as you obviously do not feel others. As a complete we do not share the intense nerve pain that a lot of incompletes do. So who are we to judge anyones ability to endure pain?

Me and you are pretty much in the same boat (age,level, function), so I was quite upset to see you cast stones so quickly. Each and every one of us has a major load to bare, belittling solves nothing. You threw some statements out there without fully thoroughly thinking of the implications. I know many quads would love to be in our shoes.

I made an ass out of myself trying to open your eyes because subtly you were doing the same. I am man enough to apologize to you and ask for your simple apology in return. Not to me, but some of the others you have offended. You were pretty rude to some ladies on here and as a southern gentleman I do not STAND for that sort of behavior.

As far as intelligence...you have clearly stated yours.


Just for the record I was not threatening you, just wanted you to think about being a quad for a sec. All to easy it is to shout things from across the room!

[Unbreakable]

Quote

Just as you have stated he does not feel your pain, as you obviously do not feel others. As a complete we do not share the intense nerve pain that a lot of incompletes do. So who are we to judge anyones ability to endure pain?

I don't know why I am about to try to explain myself, it's probably a waste of time. Here goes. Look at your above statement. You are trying to speak for me and compare me to you and/or other completes/incompletes.

Now look at the closing statement of my first post.

Quote

So, it is a falsehood to assume that paras automatically have a higher standard of living than quads. The bottom line is that each of our injuries of different and individual and we should stop comparing them to each other.

What I was trying to say is that we are all DIFFERENT. I was offering up an opinion that in SOME cases quad and para isn't as big of a distinction as complete and incomplete is. People around here need to THINK and stop taking OFFENSE so easily.

Quote

I made an ass out of myself trying to open your eyes because subtly you were doing the same. I am man enough to apologize to you and ask for your simple apology in return. Not to me, but some of the others you have offended. You were pretty rude to some ladies on here and as a southern gentleman I do not STAND for that sort of behavior.

Now, about this. My intent around here is not and never was to offend anyone. I'll also NEVER start personal attacks. However, I am not going to muzzle myself like a dog if it comes to the expression of an idea or opinion. If you don't like it, too bad. That is what discussion was designed for. The concept of free speech was concieved in order to protect unpopular ideas, not things that everyone liked and wanted to hear.

As for you being a "Southern Gentleman", perhaps you should look again as to where I am from and realize that you don't have a handle on that term.

[topperf]

Yes Break, you are complete. - a complete waste of time.

[Hikkakaru]

Unbreakable, on Oct 26 2008, 01:25 PM, said:

Quote

Make no mistake any form of paralysis is unquantifiable in the difficulty that it causes on an emotional and physical level but I strongly believe that a quadriplegics outlook may justifiably be less sunny than a paraplegics and add greater validity to their argument.

People need to get over this "para vs. quad" debate. The REAL debate is "incomplete vs. complete". I am a T-6 complete para. MOST people would automatically think that I would have a higher standard of living than say, a C-5 incomplete quad. Not necessarily so. In rehab, ALOT of INCOMPLETE quads were regaining limited walking, sexual function, limited bowel and bladder, etc. All because they were incomplete. I won't be getting that stuff back due to the nature of my complete injury. When I asked why more high-level quads were incomplete and paras tended to be complete, then answer I was given was, "Most of the time, if a person sustains complete-type trauma at the cervical level, it just outright kills them, whereas the spinal cord can sustain a higher degree of injury at the thoracic level and still allow the body to survive." Of course, there are exceptions to every rule, and there ARE complete cervical-level injuries, but they are not nearly as common as complete thoracic-level and lumbar injuries.

So, it is a falsehood to assume that paras automatically have a higher standard of living than quads. The bottom line is that each of our injuries of different and individual and we should stop comparing them to each other.

You're absolutely right that using complete versus incomplete is probably a better way to quantify someone's quality of life quickly, HOWEVER, even though a full blown walking quad might be walking visibly there can also be untold neuro-pain, bowel/bladder incontinence, and major upperbody paresis. The reason I say that is because as a walking quad there have been plenty of times that I would sacrifice my ability to be a small fraction more mobile with my legs than I am with my chair (I never said I was GOOD at walking, haha) in order to not have the intense neurological upper and lower body pain, huge amounts of tone and spacticity that is so common with incompletes, and a FULLY working upperbody like my para friends that would kill for my pseudo-working legs.

That said, there is NO good way to quantify and compare someone else's quality of life to your own or anyone else's , nor should people try to. This isn't a pissing contest. We are all screwed up on this forum for the most part and we just need to suck it up and help one another in anyway we can.

And for the most part, the answer you got was correct. A complete injury high up typically means some loss of the major autonomic systems that control homeostasis within our bodies, but as you said there are certainly exceptions.

This post has been edited by Hikkakaru: 27 October 2008 - 09:28 AM

[nomis]

Unbreakable, on Oct 27 2008, 03:44 PM, said:

I'll also NEVER start personal attacks.

[Unbreakable]

Quote

You're absolutely right that using complete versus incomplete is probably a better way to quantify someone's quality of life quickly, HOWEVER, even though a full blown walking quad might be walking visibly there can also be untold neuro-pain, bowel/bladder incontinence, and major upperbody paresis. The reason I say that is because as a walking quad there have been plenty of times that I would sacrifice my ability to be a small fraction more mobile with my legs than I am with my chair (I never said I was GOOD at walking, haha) in order to not have the intense neurological upper and lower body pain, huge amounts of tone and spacticity that is so common with incompletes, and a FULLY working upperbody like my para friends that would kill for my pseudo-working legs.

That said, there is NO good way to quantify and compare someone else's quality of life to your own or anyone else's , nor should people try to. This isn't a pissing contest. We are all screwed up on this forum for the most part and we just need to suck it up and help one another in anyway we can.

And for the most part, the answer you got was correct. A complete injury high up typically means some loss of the major autonomic systems that control homeostasis within our bodies, but as you said there are certainly exceptions.

An intelligent, well-thought reply. Thank you for keeping the discussion friendly.

[curbyi]

"This isn't a pissing contest.
We are all screwed up on this forum for the most part and we just need to suck it up and help one another in anyway we can."

Right on the money Unbreakable.


Sorry Hikkakaru
I credited Unbreakable when i was actually quoting you.

It seemed odd agreeing with him i should have known better

This post has been edited by curbyi: 27 October 2008 - 07:47 PM

[Unbreakable]

Quote

It seemed odd agreeing with him i should have known better

Yes, God forbid if anyone around here might actually agree with me.


This is basically what I was trying to say when I posted this:

Quote

So, it is a falsehood to assume that paras automatically have a higher standard of living than quads. The bottom line is that each of our injuries of different and individual and we should stop comparing them to each other.

I just have a different way of putting things, I suppose.

[kDd]

The original statement was that a Quad of his level and relative function would need his ass wiped for him for the rest of his life. Along with everything else. Therefore, his outlook on living with SCI was justifiably bleek.

I don't necessarily agree with that but, why are we discussing how complete para's have such a hard life?

[nomis]

kDd, on Oct 28 2008, 10:29 AM, said:

...I don't necessarily agree with that but, why are we discussing how complete para's have such a hard life?

Beats me, isn't the thread about issues pertaining to a high quad who elected suicide?

[Ches]

Yeah it was Nomis. It was a post pertaining to one family's tragic event and we were all here to discuss it a bit and show some respect for those who literally knew him. But again, a humble thread has been demoralized by none other...

This post has been edited by Ches: 28 October 2008 - 10:44 AM

[edlee]

Been holding off on replying to this thread,,,, waitin,, I guess,, to see what form the debate would take.

Seems to be pretty much across the board.

To me, the views seem to fall into either god/no god , free will, or too soon to decide (rationally).

I would certainly agree with the latter, in that at about the one year point, most of us have felt that depression that comes with realization. Whether one should be forced to endure an unacceptable ( to him) life for longer than he chooses, is a debate that could go on forever.

Eventually a decision will have to be made,,,,,,we all made it,,,,,accept or not. The options available at that point are many,,, either way.

Suicide or assisted suicide was never an option for me,,,,,,,but it was for him,, and it was the one he chose. Tho I don't agree with it,, it WAS HIS decision to make and I must agree with his right to make it.

Reality sucks, sometimes!!!
ed

[curbyi]

Good.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/herefor...rcs/7773483.stm

[ems]

That is a relief.

[edlee]

I never cease to be amazed at the convolutions of the legal mind......
ed

[purple_faeries]

yeah but now we've got the problem of his parents being acquitted, but what aout the young woman who has severe ms and has been battling for years so that when she does become 'too ill to have a quality of life' her husband will not be charged with murder etc when he does help her to commit suicide because of her being unable to do it, in a much less controversial case where she literally would not have a life instead of just being paralysed. I know on the news it stated that it was an 'individual case' which obviously they are just saying to get around the other cases that are in the process at the moment, but surely the 'bad deed' is when somebody helps someone to kill themselves that could have a high quality of life as we all know, rather than somebody who helps kill his wife cos she is unable to do it and literally would not be able to do anything for herself.

I wish the people who do things could get it right!!!

Hannah