162 replies to this topic

[evilmac64]

curbyi, on Oct 20 2008, 03:26 PM, said:

When you hear someone has committed suicide by jumping in front of a train do you think to yourself that person had no right to take his or her own life?

No you don't so why is this situation different?

(Actually to go off on a tangent such a way to kill yourself is utterly selfish as it could traumatise the train driver for life)

Anyway I digress.

It was his life to do as he wished whether he was right or wrong in you or my eyes is irrelevant.

Maybe in time he may of changed his mind and decided that life was worth living who knows but that's his choice.

As for his parents I have a great deal of respect for them.

I am finding at the age of 33 that somehow my disability and occasional reliance on my family for help (principally my mother) means she has in her mind a entitlement to contribute to the decision-making in my life.

This drives me insane and so to see this lad's parents respecting him as an adult and allowing him to make his own decisions without judgement I think it is extremely honourable.

Let us not forget that this will probably end their lives as they knew it and any intervention by the CPS and any punishment and persecution from the state will never match the pain that they feel inside.

I hope he found the peace that he seeked and is once again getting down and dirty in a rugby scrum in heaven.


ter

I agree 100 percent . I hope he found peace on the other side.

[Trinity]

curbyi, on Oct 20 2008, 03:26 PM, said:

When you hear someone has committed suicide by jumping in front of a train do you think to yourself that person had no right to take his or her own life?

No you don't so why is this situation different?

(Actually to go off on a tangent such a way to kill yourself is utterly selfish as it could traumatise the train driver for life)

Anyway I digress.

It was his life to do as he wished whether he was right or wrong in you or my eyes is irrelevant.

Maybe in time he may of changed his mind and decided that life was worth living who knows but that's his choice.

As for his parents I have a great deal of respect for them.

I am finding at the age of 33 that somehow my disability and occasional reliance on my family for help (principally my mother) means she has in her mind a entitlement to contribute to the decision-making in my life.

This drives me insane and so to see this lad's parents respecting him as an adult and allowing him to make his own decisions without judgement I think it is extremely honourable.

Let us not forget that this will probably end their lives as they knew it and any intervention by the CPS and any punishment and persecution from the state will never match the pain that they feel inside.

I hope he found the peace that he seeked and is once again getting down and dirty in a rugby scrum in heaven.

Very well said Curbyi,
I couldn't agree more with what you have posted.

With or without the criminal investigation, Dan's parents will never be the same again. At the end of the day they have lost their son. Their only crime seems to be to not have let him die alone.

Not really a crime in my eyes.

[curbyi]

Unbreakable, on Oct 20 2008, 03:35 PM, said:

Quote

i have spent some time thinking about this horrible situation in light of the prolific media interest in this case.
whilst its not something i want to do, i don't feel anyone can impose their life beliefs on any other person and the path they choose.
it must be the hardest thing for a parent to be asked by a child and to respect a child in such a tragic wish takes enormous courage. to be able to say you wouldnt allow your child to do it means you are in the more enviable position of it not being a reality.

as for reporters hanging around their house - just leave them alone to grieve.

I disagree. When asked by the child, a loving parent would see it for the immature nonsense request that it is. "enormous courage"? Hardly. More like enormous spinelessness and the desire to cave into immature demands from children who have not come to terms with their life situation. True enornmous courage would be facing the reality of what had happened and moving on with life.

However, after talking about this with my wife this weekend, she put another perspective on this situation for me. Her take on the situation: "It takes alot of guts and strength to live paralyzed and maybe he wasn't up to it. It's not for everybody." I dunno. I guess we'll never know now. That is the tragic thing.

No child involved he was a 23 year old man, so why start talking about children ?

Although i agree quads living and taking care of business are double hard bastards!!

[Unbreakable]

Quote

No child involved he was a 23 year old man, so why start talking about children ?

Although i agree quads living and taking care of business are double hard bastards!!

He was the child of his parents. His parents were involved in this brouhaha. We are all somebody's children.

And if he was truly an independent man, not a child, he'd not be needing to take his parents with him where he goes, now would he? Seems to me he still had a child's mindset. Don't try to lift up a 23 year old guy who drags his parents along with him on a trip to go commit suicide as a paragon of maturity and manhood. You are not exactly making a case for yourself. Anyway you put it this is a tragic thing.

[Trinity]

Unbreakable, on Oct 20 2008, 04:47 PM, said:

And if he was truly an independent man, not a child, he'd not be needing to take his parents with him where he goes, now would he?

Who ever said anything about him being independent?

If he had his independence then he may not have felt the way he did. It's easy to talk from a para's perspective, independence is the norm not the exception as it often is with tetraplegic injuries

[Unbreakable]

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Who ever said anything about him being independent?

If he had his independence then he may not have felt the way he did. It's easy to talk from a para's perspective, independence is the norm not the exception as it often is with tetraplegic injuries

There you bring up a whole other issue. A bigger consideration when speaking of SCI is "complete or incomplete" and not "para or quad". And how can YOU speak of what independence is like for a quad, when you are a para like me, trinity?

[CR_L1]

Quote

I disagree. When asked by the child, a loving parent would see it for the immature nonsense request that it is. "enormous courage"? Hardly. More like enormous spinelessness and the desire to cave into immature demands from children who have not come to terms with their life situation. True enornmous courage would be facing the reality of what had happened and moving on with life.

However, after talking about this with my wife this weekend, she put another perspective on this situation for me. Her take on the situation: "It takes alot of guts and strength to live paralyzed and maybe he wasn't up to it. It's not for everybody." I dunno. I guess we'll never know now. That is the tragic thing.

Unbreakable, I’m sorry mate reading your posts, have you lost the plot?
Your talking as though this guy is simply a child (IMMATURE NONESENCE) where are you coming from….
This guy was an adult & yes not as many years behind him as you or me but his life ended when he got injured. Rugby was his life as most sports are to sportsman, especially rugby players it’s a deeply passionate way of life for them in this country. (A MANS SPORT)

As for posting: "enormous courage"? Hardly. More like enormous spinelessness and the desire to cave into immature demands from children who have not come to terms with their life situation.
I really can’t post what I want to say about you on this statement other than, it’s people like you who give Americans a bad name..

Views such as yours are better off kept to yourself, don’t you think his parents for the rest of their lives will be thinking WHAT IF.
Spinelessness is those that would rather watch someone suffer then let them go with dignity.

I make NO apologises to Unbreakable for this post but do to anyone else that may find this post wrong.

[Unbreakable]

Quote

Unbreakable, I’m sorry mate reading your posts, have you lost the plot?
Your talking as though this guy is simply a child (IMMATURE NONESENCE) where are you coming from….
This guy was an adult & yes not as many years behind him as you or me but his life ended when he got injured. Rugby was his life as most sports are to sportsman, especially rugby players it’s a deeply passionate way of life for them in this country. (A MANS SPORT)

As for posting: "enormous courage"? Hardly. More like enormous spinelessness and the desire to cave into immature demands from children who have not come to terms with their life situation.
I really can’t post what I want to say about you on this statement other than, it’s people like you who give Americans a bad name..

Views such as yours are better off kept to yourself, don’t you think his parents for the rest of their lives will be thinking WHAT IF.
Spinelessness is those that would rather watch someone suffer then let them go with dignity.

I make NO apologises to Unbreakable for this post but do to anyone else that may find this post wrong.

His actions (hastily ending his life) indicate a high level of immaturity regardless of his actual numerical age. As I said before, he could have gone on to play wheelchair rugby.

Suffering would be if he had cancer or another terminal illness, not paralysis. Sure, if he wants to commit suicide it's his choice, but notice that he had to leave your country to do it legally in a clinical setting, so others must think that there is something wrong with it as well. If it was perfectly acceptable what he did, he shouldn't have had to fly all the way to Switzerland. Or he could have taken the shortcut I suggested and just rolled off a cliff.

[CR_L1]

Quote

His actions (hastily ending his life) indicate a high level of immaturity regardless of his actual numerical age. As I said before, he could have gone on to play wheelchair rugby.

Suffering would be if he had cancer or another terminal illness, not paralysis. Sure, if he wants to commit suicide it's his choice, but notice that he had to leave your country to do it legally in a clinical setting, so others must think that there is something wrong with it as well. If it was perfectly acceptable what he did, he shouldn't have had to fly all the way to Switzerland. Or he could have taken the shortcut I suggested and just rolled off a cliff.

You are one small minded little man..
You must have a different view on the meaning of suffering, rolling off a cliff or doing a bottle of pills is no dignified or guaranteed way of going.

[curbyi]

Unbreakable, on Oct 20 2008, 05:29 PM, said:

Quote

Unbreakable, I'm sorry mate reading your posts, have you lost the plot?
Your talking as though this guy is simply a child (IMMATURE NONESENCE) where are you coming from….
This guy was an adult & yes not as many years behind him as you or me but his life ended when he got injured. Rugby was his life as most sports are to sportsman, especially rugby players it's a deeply passionate way of life for them in this country. (A MANS SPORT)

As for posting: "enormous courage"? Hardly. More like enormous spinelessness and the desire to cave into immature demands from children who have not come to terms with their life situation.
I really can't post what I want to say about you on this statement other than, it's people like you who give Americans a bad name..

Views such as yours are better off kept to yourself, don't you think his parents for the rest of their lives will be thinking WHAT IF.
Spinelessness is those that would rather watch someone suffer then let them go with dignity.

I make NO apologises to Unbreakable for this post but do to anyone else that may find this post wrong.

His actions (hastily ending his life) indicate a high level of immaturity regardless of his actual numerical age. As I said before, he could have gone on to play wheelchair rugby.

Suffering would be if he had cancer or another terminal illness, not paralysis. Sure, if he wants to commit suicide it's his choice, but notice that he had to leave your country to do it legally in a clinical setting, so others must think that there is something wrong with it as well. If it was perfectly acceptable what he did, he shouldn't have had to fly all the way to Switzerland. Or he could have taken the shortcut I suggested and just rolled off a cliff.

Lets all chill a bit families should not fight.

Like Ringo said "Peace and love" ohh and "No more F##ing autographs"

Edited by curbyi, 20 October 2008 - 05:21 PM.

[Unbreakable]

Quote

You are one small minded little man..
You must have a different view on the meaning of suffering, rolling off a cliff or doing a bottle of pills is no dignified or guaranteed way of going.

Nah, but this guy, in your words is a MANLY rugby player, who plays rugby, A MAN'S SPORT. Why would he want to mess about with sissy needles and whatnot in Switzerland? Might as well be MANLY about it and be a REAL MAN and roll off a cliff and take a chance, you know? If he REALLY wanted to go out with a bang in a MANLY fashion, perhaps he should have gone to Pamplona, Spain for the running of the bulls?

I'm being sarcastic here. In my eyes if you really wanted to tout how manly this guy was, you would have made a better case if he would have NOT commited suicide, and was living on his own independently as a quad. Now THAT'S manly. Just leave it to say that this is a tragic case, and this guy will never get a chance to realize his potential or how rewarding the paralyzed lifestyle can be. His loss.

[CR_L1]

Unbreakable, on Oct 20 2008, 06:15 PM, said:

Quote

You are one small minded little man..
You must have a different view on the meaning of suffering, rolling off a cliff or doing a bottle of pills is no dignified or guaranteed way of going.

Nah, but this guy, in your words is a MANLY rugby player, who plays rugby, A MAN'S SPORT. Why would he want to mess about with sissy needles and whatnot in Switzerland? Might as well be MANLY about it and be a REAL MAN and roll off a cliff and take a chance, you know? If he REALLY wanted to go out with a bang in a MANLY fashion, perhaps he should have gone to Pamplona, Spain for the running of the bulls?

I'm being sarcastic here. In my eyes if you really wanted to tout how manly this guy was, you would have made a better case if he would have NOT commited suicide, and was living on his own independently as a quad. Now THAT'S manly. Just leave it to say that this is a tragic case, and this guy will never get a chance to realize his potential or how rewarding the paralyzed lifestyle can be. His loss.

Yer who knows he could have become a manly STAY-AT-HOME-DAD
Oh I'm being sarcastic now...

Edited by CR_L1, 20 October 2008 - 05:37 PM.

[Unbreakable]

Quote

Yer who knows he could have become a manly STAY-AT-HOME-DAD
Oh I'm being sarcastic now...

Damn right! I fear no poopy diaper! This pretty much sums it up right here: http://www.break.com...me-dad-rap.html

Edited by Unbreakable, 20 October 2008 - 06:07 PM.

[skeaman]

I know no one is blameing he for commiting suicid.If you are looking for the one's to blame try the Docter's Scientist's Goverment for thay will not push on push on and try human trial's any thing is better nothing .Then we have the church and we have the do gooder's thay are against Embro stemcell's work.Thay say it is Destroying life. How can you destroy a life that has not begun. No donght some one will say other thing's if we where to get some kind of cure out of it.Let us take it and you's don't How simpel is that

Edited by skeaman, 20 October 2008 - 07:08 PM.

[love&hate]

1 word.. weak

He chosen the easy way out. Hate quiters and his parents should be ashamed.

[Unbreakable]

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1 word.. weak

He chosen the easy way out. Hate quiters and his parents should be ashamed.

Glad I'm not the only one who sees things this way.

[stevensgirl14]

I agree with love&hate. Very rarely do our lives turn out the way we had planned in our story book imaginations. But....life goes on. My fiance IS a single father, he didn't have the option to give up.

[Dave Bishopstone]

I am so sorry that the deceased regarded himself and by implication others with SCI as living a 'second class existence'

As the parent of an SCI son, he (my son) has demonstrated to me and all who meet him, the qualities of a 'first class' human being!

Edited by Dave Bishopstone, 20 October 2008 - 08:21 PM.

[Unbreakable]

Quote

I am so sorry that the deceased regarded himself and by implication others with SCI as living a second class existence'

As the parent of an SCI son, he (my son) has demonstrated to me and all who meet him, the qualities of a first class human being!

Bravo! I completely agree. If only you could have told this to that rugby player's parents before he went and killed himself. Maybe they could have talked him out of it and prevented a tragedy...

[Dave Bishopstone]

Unbreakable, on Oct 20 2008, 09:23 PM, said:

Quote

I am so sorry that the deceased regarded himself and by implication others with SCI as living a second class existence'

As the parent of an SCI son, he (my son) has demonstrated to me and all who meet him, the qualities of a first class human being!

Bravo! I completely agree. If only you could have told this to that rugby player's parents before he went and killed himself. Maybe they could have talked him out of it and prevented a tragedy...

I suspect some tried, obviously none succeeded

[Tinbasher]

curbyi, on Oct 20 2008, 03:26 PM, said:

When you hear someone has committed suicide by jumping in front of a train do you think to yourself that person had no right to take his or her own life?

No you don't so why is this situation different?

When you hear that somebodys parents drove them to the railway station and bought them a platform ticket so they could jump in front of a train. Do you think they were good parents?

(In the UK the above action is crime and NO debate)

If somone sees a drowning person should they ask if they are disabled and therfore have nothing to live for?

Someone said it earlier "I could have been supported to live or supported to die, luckily it was to live."

What this really feels like is immature macho reasoning it seems he would rather die than live as a cripple. It is the logic of John Wayne movies and cheap war stories.

You also said "(Actually to go off on a tangent such a way to kill yourself is utterly selfish as it could traumatise the train driver for life)"

Well maybe we and thousands of other disabled people fighting to maintan dignified first class lives are the train drivers in this little tragedy.

Tin

[Unbreakable]

Quote

When you hear that somebodys parents drove them to the railway station and bought them a platform ticket so they could jump in front of a train. Do you think they were good parents?

(In the UK the above action is crime and NO debate)

If somone sees a drowning person should they ask if they are disabled and therfore have nothing to live for?

Someone said it earlier "I could have been supported to live or supported to die, luckily it was to live."

What this really feels like is immature macho reasoning it seems he would rather die than live as a cripple. It is the logic of John Wayne movies and cheap war stories.

You also said "(Actually to go off on a tangent such a way to kill yourself is utterly selfish as it could traumatise the train driver for life)"

Well maybe we and thousands of other disabled people fighting to maintan dignified first class lives are the train drivers in this little tragedy.

Tin

Brilliant. Well said.

[curbyi]

love&hate, on Oct 20 2008, 09:03 PM, said:

1 word.. weak

He chosen the easy way out. Hate quiters and his parents should be ashamed.

BOLLOCKS, but you are a high Quad so your view is valid!

But your still wrong.

[Unbreakable]

Quote

BOLLOCKS, but you are a high Quad so your view is valid!

But your still wrong.

No, it should say that you *think* he's wrong. Last time I checked, we are all entitled to our opinion. And a quad doesn't get any more or less votes than a para in this twisted democracy called paralysis. Equality.

[hurbshankin]

I believe everyone has the choice to make this decision or anyother choice. It may not be the choice others would make, but his choice in the end.

Hurb

[kimgilaby]

As I was reading there is only 2 things that popped into my head, 1) What if his parents had refused to go with him? and 2) 3 FAILED attemptes at suicide sounds like a scream for help to me. Though I don't know what method he used those times if the right people had seen him and got him the help he needed maybe just maybe we wouldn't be talking about this.. I want to cry because he felt so alone that dying was his only way to acceptance. My husband is aproaching the one year mark on Nov 7 and he has thought about it, but we have finally found a group for him that he enjoys its a greif counceling group and it has been wonderful for him. I wish that this boy could have found that he wasn't alone

[Unbreakable]

Quote

As I was reading there is only 2 things that popped into my head, 1) What if his parents had refused to go with him? and 2) 3 FAILED attemptes at suicide sounds like a scream for help to me. Though I don't know what method he used those times if the right people had seen him and got him the help he needed maybe just maybe we wouldn't be talking about this.. I want to cry because he felt so alone that dying was his only way to acceptance. My husband is aproaching the one year mark on Nov 7 and he has thought about it, but we have finally found a group for him that he enjoys its a greif counceling group and it has been wonderful for him. I wish that this boy could have found that he wasn't alone

I agreee the FAILED suicide attempts sound like a cry for help; probably to the parents in question. Intresting question about if they had REFUSED to go with him. Would he have chickened out? It almost is seeming like this is more their idea than his or that the parents pressured him into it in some way, which is why I stand by my original statement about the whole thing.

[russ1]

Unbreakable, on Oct 20 2008, 10:06 PM, said:

Quote

BOLLOCKS, but you are a high Quad so your view is valid!

But your still wrong.

No, it should say that you *think* he's wrong. Last time I checked, we are all entitled to our opinion. And a quad doesn't get any more or less votes than a para in this twisted democracy called paralysis. Equality.

Asking him to add in 'think' is pedantic in the extreme - it's there by implication especially when considered in conjunction with the previous line

And in this particular debate I'm afraid that curbyi is quite right, a quad does get more votes as they truly have some insight into how a quad dependent on others feels that we as independent paras have not much more idea about than any able bodied person.

Personally I think that he has (or at least should have) the right to not have to live a life that he can't cope with and I fully support the efforts of people like Diane Petty to have the law in the UK changed. In this particular case and with this particular injury I am saddened that this person could not see past his disabilities and or give himself a lot longer to come to terms with it and enjoy his life as I know many many people with his level of injury do and am surprised that his parents would help him this quickly - I suspect in this case the decisions were badly misjudged but choose not to condemn them for making them.

I was interested to hear on the news that the parents were defending themselves on an online forum - not managed to find it? Anyone else?

[curbyi]

Unbreakable, on Oct 20 2008, 10:06 PM, said:

Quote

BOLLOCKS, but you are a high Quad so your view is valid!

But your still wrong.

No, it should say that you *think* he's wrong. Last time I checked, we are all entitled to our opinion. And a quad doesn't get any more or less votes than a para in this twisted democracy called paralysis. Equality.

Would love to rip into you now but i have to go to bed as my carer has arrived i cannot get into bed alone it's now or never.

See you in the morning, if the carer turns up.

gedit

[Unbreakable]

Quote

Would love to rip into you now but i have to go to bed as my carer has arrived i cannot get into bed alone it's now or never.

See you in the morning, if the carer turns up.

gedit

Now see, that's what I like to hear! You could've taught the ol' rugby player a thing or two about determination. There's a quad with spirit! I await your riposte.

Edited by Unbreakable, 20 October 2008 - 10:12 PM.