[Tinbasher]

curbyi, on Oct 20 2008, 03:26 PM, said:

When you hear someone has committed suicide by jumping in front of a train do you think to yourself that person had no right to take his or her own life?

No you don't so why is this situation different?

When you hear that somebodys parents drove them to the railway station and bought them a platform ticket so they could jump in front of a train. Do you think they were good parents?

(In the UK the above action is crime and NO debate)

If somone sees a drowning person should they ask if they are disabled and therfore have nothing to live for?

Someone said it earlier "I could have been supported to live or supported to die, luckily it was to live."

What this really feels like is immature macho reasoning it seems he would rather die than live as a cripple. It is the logic of John Wayne movies and cheap war stories.

You also said "(Actually to go off on a tangent such a way to kill yourself is utterly selfish as it could traumatise the train driver for life)"

Well maybe we and thousands of other disabled people fighting to maintan dignified first class lives are the train drivers in this little tragedy.

Tin

[Unbreakable]

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When you hear that somebodys parents drove them to the railway station and bought them a platform ticket so they could jump in front of a train. Do you think they were good parents?

(In the UK the above action is crime and NO debate)

If somone sees a drowning person should they ask if they are disabled and therfore have nothing to live for?

Someone said it earlier "I could have been supported to live or supported to die, luckily it was to live."

What this really feels like is immature macho reasoning it seems he would rather die than live as a cripple. It is the logic of John Wayne movies and cheap war stories.

You also said "(Actually to go off on a tangent such a way to kill yourself is utterly selfish as it could traumatise the train driver for life)"

Well maybe we and thousands of other disabled people fighting to maintan dignified first class lives are the train drivers in this little tragedy.

Tin

Brilliant. Well said.

[curbyi]

love&hate, on Oct 20 2008, 09:03 PM, said:

1 word.. weak

He chosen the easy way out. Hate quiters and his parents should be ashamed.

BOLLOCKS, but you are a high Quad so your view is valid!

But your still wrong.

[Unbreakable]

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BOLLOCKS, but you are a high Quad so your view is valid!

But your still wrong.

No, it should say that you *think* he's wrong. Last time I checked, we are all entitled to our opinion. And a quad doesn't get any more or less votes than a para in this twisted democracy called paralysis. Equality.

[hurbshankin]

I believe everyone has the choice to make this decision or anyother choice. It may not be the choice others would make, but his choice in the end.

Hurb

[kimgilaby]

As I was reading there is only 2 things that popped into my head, 1) What if his parents had refused to go with him? and 2) 3 FAILED attemptes at suicide sounds like a scream for help to me. Though I don't know what method he used those times if the right people had seen him and got him the help he needed maybe just maybe we wouldn't be talking about this.. I want to cry because he felt so alone that dying was his only way to acceptance. My husband is aproaching the one year mark on Nov 7 and he has thought about it, but we have finally found a group for him that he enjoys its a greif counceling group and it has been wonderful for him. I wish that this boy could have found that he wasn't alone

[Unbreakable]

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As I was reading there is only 2 things that popped into my head, 1) What if his parents had refused to go with him? and 2) 3 FAILED attemptes at suicide sounds like a scream for help to me. Though I don't know what method he used those times if the right people had seen him and got him the help he needed maybe just maybe we wouldn't be talking about this.. I want to cry because he felt so alone that dying was his only way to acceptance. My husband is aproaching the one year mark on Nov 7 and he has thought about it, but we have finally found a group for him that he enjoys its a greif counceling group and it has been wonderful for him. I wish that this boy could have found that he wasn't alone

I agreee the FAILED suicide attempts sound like a cry for help; probably to the parents in question. Intresting question about if they had REFUSED to go with him. Would he have chickened out? It almost is seeming like this is more their idea than his or that the parents pressured him into it in some way, which is why I stand by my original statement about the whole thing.

[russ1]

Unbreakable, on Oct 20 2008, 10:06 PM, said:

Quote

BOLLOCKS, but you are a high Quad so your view is valid!

But your still wrong.

No, it should say that you *think* he's wrong. Last time I checked, we are all entitled to our opinion. And a quad doesn't get any more or less votes than a para in this twisted democracy called paralysis. Equality.

Asking him to add in 'think' is pedantic in the extreme - it's there by implication especially when considered in conjunction with the previous line

And in this particular debate I'm afraid that curbyi is quite right, a quad does get more votes as they truly have some insight into how a quad dependent on others feels that we as independent paras have not much more idea about than any able bodied person.

Personally I think that he has (or at least should have) the right to not have to live a life that he can't cope with and I fully support the efforts of people like Diane Petty to have the law in the UK changed. In this particular case and with this particular injury I am saddened that this person could not see past his disabilities and or give himself a lot longer to come to terms with it and enjoy his life as I know many many people with his level of injury do and am surprised that his parents would help him this quickly - I suspect in this case the decisions were badly misjudged but choose not to condemn them for making them.

I was interested to hear on the news that the parents were defending themselves on an online forum - not managed to find it? Anyone else?

[curbyi]

Unbreakable, on Oct 20 2008, 10:06 PM, said:

Quote

BOLLOCKS, but you are a high Quad so your view is valid!

But your still wrong.

No, it should say that you *think* he's wrong. Last time I checked, we are all entitled to our opinion. And a quad doesn't get any more or less votes than a para in this twisted democracy called paralysis. Equality.

Would love to rip into you now but i have to go to bed as my carer has arrived i cannot get into bed alone it's now or never.

See you in the morning, if the carer turns up.

gedit

[Unbreakable]

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Would love to rip into you now but i have to go to bed as my carer has arrived i cannot get into bed alone it's now or never.

See you in the morning, if the carer turns up.

gedit

Now see, that's what I like to hear! You could've taught the ol' rugby player a thing or two about determination. There's a quad with spirit! I await your riposte.

This post has been edited by Unbreakable: 20 October 2008 - 10:12 PM

[Unbreakable]

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Asking him to add in 'think' is pedantic in the extreme - it's there by implication especially when considered in conjunction with the previous line

And in this particular debate I'm afraid that curbyi is quite right, a quad does get more votes as they truly have some insight into how a quad dependent on others feels that we as independent paras have not much more idea about than any able bodied person.

I don't know about you, but I WAS dependent on others directly after my injury. Independence does not come overnight. I STILL AM dependent on others for some things. I mean really, if you want to get right down to it, even ABs are dependent to a degree, it is part of human society. For instance, do you know how to rebuild the transmission in your car? Probably not, that is what you would hire a mechanic for, and be DEPENDENT on his services. We are all dependent on each other, just to varying degrees.

[evilmac64]

A grown man with any reason they cant handle has the right to kill himself. I f thats what he chooses it hits friends and family hard i know been through it when it happened to me i new my friend had made a huge mistake. But here is the thing he had the right to do it. All we could do was hope he found a beater place for him. So go ahead an jump on me tell me how wrong i am it wont change the fact he had the right.

[wheeliebear75]

I always thought the assisted suicides were ONLY for those terminally ill by something incurable and degenerative in nature. It seems silly to ALLOW someone to kill themselves over depression especially since it can and often does come and go. I may have to live my life sitting down but I'm darn happy to have my life. It's quite sad that this man was able to take the time to fly to another country and yet in all that time.....not have 2nd thoughts. I'd like to see the policies of the Swiss Assisted Suicide be made a bit more strict. ONLY those who are close enough to death they would be in touch with hospice services otherwise. There are a lot of conditions that although they're terrible could be cured some day and besides that........every day of life is a precious gift.

[Zammo]

I think it's tragic that this lad didn't give his life a try. One year seems like such a short period of time in which to decide to end one's life.

I don't blame the parents but I wonder how they were able to accept that this was the right course of action so quickly. I expect that when they lay in bed at night they constantly ask themselves whether this was the right thing to do. Punishing them seems pointless compared to what they must be suffering.

I also agree that it seems wrong that Paralysis qualifies as a condition whereby assisted suicide can be carried out. It isn't a terminal condition. And I resent the idea that paras and quads are "second class citizens".

I was in rehab with Matt Hampson the Leicester Tigers player. He had a very level injury and I'm sure that he was fighting with his own daemons, but he seemed to be living life to the full (wow his girlfriend! )

It's all very very sad.

By hey, I'm a para, what do I know.

[Izziwhizzi]

The more I read about this situation the more upset I feel.

We all understand the depression and upset felt during the initial stages of injury by the injured person and their family, their wonderful big physical son is no more. Its tough.

But he went to rehab at arguably the best rehab place in the UK. A place where the canteen has free internet access set up, you can have mobiles on the ward, where there are professionals and volunteers trained in all sorts of rehab techniques. Is something missing in our rehab? Something required locally when you get home?

I remember the joy of coming home from hospital, but only to find that honeymoon period short lived as I slammed into a brick wall of red tape, bad carers and being bullied around by so called professional staff who were far from understanding. I was sent home from hospital thinking everything would be fine, only to find a series of No, No, No's. I cried myself to sleep every night for 2 years, I was obviously very depressed, but no one was there to help. I'm sure many of us were the same.

One also has to question the perceived viewpoint of a disabled life by both the general community and also the 'rugby' community. Everyone who plays rugby seriously should know of the implications of spinal injuries, many caused by scrums, and this lad was a hooker. I'm not saying just because he was a hooker he should expect injury like ours, just that he did know it was a possibility. If this lad felt so alienated by being in a chair, I think the rugby community at club level ought to shake themselves up a bit, and make themselves a lot more pro-active with the disability their sport causes. I don't just mean raising money for chairs the NHS won't fund, but maybe inclusion not awkwardness within their club activities. And yes, there is awkwardness.

OK, the RFU have great facilities for disabled seating at the premier stadium Twickenham, but this is not the same across the country. The Millenium stadium at Cardiff has incredibly limited and really quite poor access for matches and pop concerts in their grounds. Club level, well I know my local club house is up a flight of stairs, totally inaccesible.

I only live half an hour away from where he did, and feel bad that I couldn't even have the opportunity show his parents that their is a life with crap tetraplegia. Let them see that a tetra can do a degree, have a career, have a great partner, have two wonderful kids, travel, have friends and be part of society - all post injury. If someone is determined to do so that is, and so far everyone has commented what a determined young man he was.

They bravely gave their son the right to die, but how hard did they look before this choice was taken? Did they come here? Did they go to Stoke? Did they see a specialist shrink? Did they get him involved with quad rugby? Did they get him on a back up course? Did they get him drinking with russ or megatrig?

Spasm and incontinence have been listed as additional unacceptable problems ...... thats not enough is it?

Also his Mum has been quoted as saying ....

"I always stop and think that if every family affected by spinal injury in the past 20 years had raised money for research, we might be five years more advanced and it may have made a difference to Dan.”

One looks at that statement as a very hurt Mum, but also a Mum blaming us, the spinal injured community, for not getting up off our arses to help cure ourselves. Its a strong statement.

One also has to think that he went to Switzerland so that his parents 'could' be with him when he died. Whatever reason he did it for, I think we shouldnt let it pass lightly and we ought to look at what can be done to improve ours and new injuries lives.

BTW I feel I am able to comment. I live in the society he does, I was injured at a similar age, I am a higher injury.

I xxx

[curbyi]

Zammo, on Oct 21 2008, 11:19 AM, said:

I think it's tragic that this lad didn't give his life a try. One year seems like such a short period of time in which to decide to end one's life.

I don't blame the parents but I wonder how they were able to accept that this was the right course of action so quickly. I expect that when they lay in bed at night they constantly ask themselves whether this was the right thing to do. Punishing them seems pointless compared to what they must be suffering.

I also agree that it seems wrong that Paralysis qualifies as a condition whereby assisted suicide can be carried out. It isn't a terminal condition. And I resent the idea that paras and quads are "second class citizens".

I was in rehab with Matt Hampson the Leicester Tigers player. He had a very level injury and I'm sure that he was fighting with his own daemons, but he seemed to be living life to the full (wow his girlfriend! )

It's all very very sad.

By hey, I'm a para, what do I know.

i hope you give Ramos time too, a year is not enough before you end his life at Spurs!

Sorry Zammo i could not resist my friend.

[JT80]

curbyi, on Oct 21 2008, 02:39 PM, said:

Zammo, on Oct 21 2008, 11:19 AM, said:

I think it's tragic that this lad didn't give his life a try. One year seems like such a short period of time in which to decide to end one's life.

I don't blame the parents but I wonder how they were able to accept that this was the right course of action so quickly. I expect that when they lay in bed at night they constantly ask themselves whether this was the right thing to do. Punishing them seems pointless compared to what they must be suffering.

I also agree that it seems wrong that Paralysis qualifies as a condition whereby assisted suicide can be carried out. It isn't a terminal condition. And I resent the idea that paras and quads are "second class citizens".

I was in rehab with Matt Hampson the Leicester Tigers player. He had a very level injury and I'm sure that he was fighting with his own daemons, but he seemed to be living life to the full (wow his girlfriend! )

It's all very very sad.

By hey, I'm a para, what do I know.

i hope you give Ramos time too, a year is not enough before you end his life at Spurs!

Sorry Zammo i could not resist my friend.

haha

[love&hate]

curbyi, on Oct 20 2008, 04:53 PM, said:

love&hate, on Oct 20 2008, 09:03 PM, said:

1 word.. weak

He chosen the easy way out. Hate quiters and his parents should be ashamed.

BOLLOCKS, but you are a high Quad so your view is valid!

But your still wrong.

hello

Now, tell me sir. How am I wrong? We both know the first year is the worse. From my experience i can tell that it can be hard but there was not even once when a suicide came to my mind. All i was thinking about is to get better.1 year after i was obsessed with rehab trying everything possible. When something didnt work it only made me try something else and move forward. Every single move was a joy and another reason to live. I really cant understand how someone can do such a stupid thing so early. I MEAN 1 YEAR. This makes me mad because of the short time after his injury. I was just starting to learn how to use wheelchair. I couldnt even sit in 1 cause i was losing my consciousness and guess what NOW i can walk... crapy walk but still . There are wonderful things on this world like feelings, music,love,dreams. Why not give it a shot. He WAS only 23. Seriously i truly believe that some day the cure for SCI will help us make our dreams come true. In my opinion this guy wasnt surrounded by people that care enough to love him the way he WAS. For me suicide never was and never will be an option no matter what happenes. No matter what pain will i suffer.Its just not fair for people that love me. I dont want to judge him but i dont think he was very smart and neither were his parents. He chosen the worst possible option. I feel sorry for him and his whole family.

This post has been edited by love&hate: 22 October 2008 - 12:03 AM

[qbounce]

Is it to late to say good riddance??

That would mean more state money for those of us who want to live, anyway. Maybe we should all have an Assisted Suicide Ward right in the SCI rehab facilities. That way, those who don't want to lift weights can roll right into the OTHER room that doesn't have an EXIT door.

btw, who the hell said paras and quads on this forum are different and therefor get more or less of a vote? We all have our own burdens to deal with due to paralysis: cronic pain, ulcers, uti's, etc. How about respecting each others opinions because we have an open forum to do so!

UB is just playing devil's advocate, and I gotta respect that . . . even if I don't agree with him.

[Unbreakable]

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btw, who the hell said paras and quads on this forum are different and therefor get more or less of a vote? We all have our own burdens to deal with due to paralysis: cronic pain, ulcers, uti's, etc. How about respecting each others opinions because we have an open forum to do so!

Now, that is logic I can really agree with.

[nomis]

love&hate, on Oct 22 2008, 12:57 PM, said:

curbyi, on Oct 20 2008, 04:53 PM, said:

love&hate, on Oct 20 2008, 09:03 PM, said:

1 word.. weak

He chosen the easy way out. Hate quiters and his parents should be ashamed.

BOLLOCKS, but you are a high Quad so your view is valid!
But your still wrong.

Now, tell me sir. How am I wrong? We both know the first year is the worse. From my experience i can tell that it can be hard but there was not even once when a suicide came to my mind. All i was thinking about is to get better.1 year after i was obsessed with rehab trying everything possible. When something didnt work it only made me try something else and move forward. Every single move was a joy and another reason to live. I really cant understand how someone can do such a stupid thing so early. I MEAN 1 YEAR. This makes me mad because of the short time after his injury. I was just starting to learn how to use wheelchair. I couldnt even sit in 1 cause i was losing my consciousness and guess what NOW i can walk... crapy walk but still . There are wonderful things on this world like feelings, music,love,dreams. Why not give it a shot. He WAS only 23. Seriously i truly believe that some day the cure for SCI will help us make our dreams come true. In my opinion this guy wasnt surrounded by people that care enough to love him the way he WAS. For me suicide never was and never will be an option no matter what happenes. No matter what pain will i suffer.Its just not fair for people that love me. I dont want to judge him but i dont think he was very smart and neither were his parents. He chosen the worst possible option. I feel sorry for him and his whole family.

I reckon you're both right. It's a terrible waste of an unexplored life but I'm not going to judge anyone faced with making such a final decision.

I'm clear of what I would do in such a situation but have no idea of the pressures facing that young guy. As a top sportsman, winning was everything to him. He was driven to be a winner and anything else apparently wasn't acceptable. His decision doesn't make sense to me but it did to him.

The important thing is that each of us controls our own lives. It's mine to decide.

[Unbreakable]

Quote

You're an ass.

The feeling is mutual, I'm sure.

[rmorgan]

Unbreakable, on Oct 22 2008, 01:31 PM, said:

Quote

You're an ass.

The feeling is mutual, I'm sure.

I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Why do you believe that it's necessary to chastize someone for what their opinion is? It's like if they don't agree with you...then their some kind of moron and you try and try to make them see things your way. We understand how you feel on this subject, why is it necessary for you to let everyone know your opinion (again) after someone else has posted something you don't agree with??

I haven't seen such hateful posts since I've been a member here until you came along.

I'm not saying that I agree with what this man decided to do...but how is it our right to judge him??? Some people can deal and some can't. End of story.

[Unbreakable]

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I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Why do you believe that it's necessary to chastize someone for what their opinion is? It's like if they don't agree with you...then their some kind of moron and you try and try to make them see things your way. We understand how you feel on this subject, why is it necessary for you to let everyone know your opinion (again) after someone else has posted something you don't agree with??

I haven't seen such hateful posts since I've been a member here until you came along.

I'm not saying that I agree with what this man decided to do...but how is it our right to judge him??? Some people can deal and some can't. End of story.

I believe in freedom of speech and free discussion. I am able to discuss my thoughts and opinions without it carrying any emotional weight or baggage. Obviously you are not able to do so. After all, I wasn't the one coming on here calling someone an ASS for believing or thinking a certain way or having a certain opinion, that would be you. Seems you like to play the thought police around here, and if anyone says something you don't approve of, they get called names/insulted. Standard tactic of the illogical, liberal.

[rmorgan]

I called you an ass because I thought you were making a rude statement towards curbyi about not being able to get in and out of his own bed. And I removed my statement but you had already replied. There's nothing wrong with free speech, but I believe you're king of throwing insults and name calling, it's almost all I've read coming from your posts in some way or the other.

I wasn't in fact calling you an ass because of your thoughts or opinion. It's was when you start being rude to other posters that I said that, and telling JT80 that he should be next in line to go to Switzerland for posting HIS opinion. Hmmm...

[Unbreakable]

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I called you an ass because I thought you were making a rude statement towards curbyi about not being able to get in and out of his own bed. And I removed my statement but you had already replied. There's nothing wrong with free speech, but I believe you're king of throwing insults and name calling, it's almost all I've read coming from your posts in some way or the other.

I wasn't in fact calling you an ass because of your thoughts or opinion. It's was when you start being rude to other posters that I said that, and telling JT80 that he should be next in line to go to Switzerland for posting HIS opinion. Hmmm...

See, this just proves my point that you are trying to be the thought police around here. Last time I checked, Simon was in charge of this website, not you. He mentioned something in a post about my Switzerland comment, it doesn't require any further commentary from the likes of you.

As for my remark about curbyi, that was meant in the spirit of debate, and meant to be taken tongue-in-cheek. I was not, and never would make fun of another paralyzed person's disability or their limitations. There you go trying to be the thought police again. 65 years ago, you'd have made a good Nazi, and you'd probably make a good communist secret police now. In the future, perhaps you should follow my example towards you and mind your own business. Oh, and STFU.

[rmorgan]

Yes, Simon is indeed in charged of this website. But that doesn't mean I can't post MY OPINION on the behalf of your outrageous rudeness. The "thought police" "nazi" aw come on...are we five? Telling me to shut the f*** up...real mature. And the "likes of me"??? What else are you implying here.

Free speech...without emotional baggage is what I'm doing here. Hey...free speech. Free speech here.


And with regards to this actual post....it is indeed a sad thing. But things like this happen everyday to lots of people dealing with issues. But it isn't right for us to judge his decisions...who knows what was else was going on??

[Unbreakable]

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Yes, Simon is indeed in charged of this website. But that doesn't mean I can't post MY OPINION on the behalf of your outrageous rudeness. The "thought police" "nazi" aw come on...are we five? Telling me to shut the f*** up...real mature. And the "likes of me"??? What else are you implying here.

Free speech...without emotional baggage is what I'm doing here. Hey...free speech. Free speech here.


And with regards to this actual post....it is indeed a sad thing. But things like this happen everyday to lots of people dealing with issues. But it isn't right for us to judge his decisions...who knows what was else was going on??

*sighs* I feel like I am trying to explain something to my two year old son. Probably have better luck. Things like this DO happen everyday to lots of people, and I would have thought you'd be intelligent enough to know the difference between judging someone and expressing an opinion about a current event. I guess not.

"without emotional baggage"? Whatever. Your posts are laden with emotion.

Anyway, I'm done here and done talking to you. I've got my sons poopy diaper needs changing. Smells better than the nonsense you are spouting.

[rmorgan]

You can say whatever you want to whom ever you please... But DO NOT ever insult my intelligence again.

I'm glad my posts have emotion...that's a good thing. Trying having emotions for people sometime, because it's clear you do not.

This is the last time...mark my word...I ever post anything in response to you.

You talk of "free speech" but you tell me to mind my own business. Do I smell a hypocrite? Maybe. And what "example" have you set towards me...not one I do believe.

Why don't you go play somewhere else. Because frankly...there's a lot of people tired of your bullshit.

I am indeed not senseless or unreasonable...so for you to call me illogical my friend is absurd. My grasps with logic is very intact. You know not a single little fact about me...so when it comes to calling me names...you can definitely mind YOUR own business.

Try using this site for what it was intended for...not to attack other people in any shape, form or fashion.

[reaven85]

ASSISTED SUICIDE?!?!
This is the first I have ever heard of that? That is the most sickening thing I have ever heard of? How on earth can someone study your life and then determine its ok to kill yourself?!?
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't suicide tragic? Isn't it just giving up? Also doesn't God frown upon it? I mean I'm sure that if you were meant to die you would have?
How on earth do they assist you? If they can't help than what is it that they do? Oh and someone said that they are trying to do it here in the U.S? Well if people are encouraging suicide than why do we have hotlines and websites and meds for depression/suicide?
Since when did being paralyzed give you a good reason to die? Especially when you have family and friends.
Oh my this really Urks me!